#HRTechChat: Organizational Psychologist Caitlin Collins, Program Strategy Director at Betterworks

In the spirit of the occasion February is likely best known for, this episode of the #HRTechChat video podcast has a Valentine’s Day theme. It goes something like this: leaders need to be more empathetic in their relationships with the workforce, and the latest innovations in the thinking and software when it comes to employee performance help significantly under circumstances good and bad.

My guest, Caitlin Collins, a highly trained organizational psychologist, knows more than a little bit about this. Caitlin is program strategy director at Betterworks, where she’s instrumental in helping the company to be as effective as possible in providing solutions and strategies enabling employers to move beyond stilted annual performance reviews and toward a much more frequent, interactive cadence between managers and their direct reports. She brings a compelling background to the task.

“For a number of years, I volunteered as a trauma specialist. And I think that plays a lot into what I do today. I would show up when people called 911,” she said, and seeing these big (and painful) moments in people’s lives made her wonder. “My big question was, ‘Well, what do organizations do for people that go through big moments?'” Since then, Caitlin has worked through a lot of different change and learning programs, as well as different types of performance programs, “to help build a bigger philosophy around what works well and what we should do and what we probably shouldn’t be doing” when it comes to measuring and encouraging employee performance.

When we hear about the latest advancements in software facilitating an organization’s ability to work with employees on their performance, the context is often highly positive. It’s important to remember, however, that the work of measuring employees’ performance and interacting with them about it isn’t always going to be “all skittles and unicorns,” as I put it — or, as Caitlin says, “all rainbows and ponytails.” Yes, better ways to measure and address employee performance decrease the incidence of poor performance. Additionally, however, the latest and greatest  solutions available to organizations in this vein act not unlike mental prosthetics for managers who want to be better leaders even as they navigate the difficulties of addressing any poor performance that persists nonetheless.

Caitlin had lots to share around all this, and readers owe it to themselves to tune into this episode. There are so many layers, after all, to leadership, empathy in the workplace, and the state of the art of the technology for, and thinking around, cultivating employees’ performance.

Several guests of our podcast over the past year-plus have been related to Betterworks, by the way: CEO Doug Dennerline and Vice President of HR Transformation Jamie Aitkin, as well as Jeff Andes, vice president of talent management at University of Phoenix, where a deployment of Betterworks has played a big role in transforming the organizational culture in the right direction.

Finally, I should clarify something. This was not, as I announced at the outset of the recording, the inaugural episode of #HRTechChat for 2023. I made a mistake, as the honor goes to an episode that my colleague Jen Dole hosted earlier, in January. Go here to check it out. As for the episode you just read about here, it was at least my first episode for the new year, and it was a real pleasure to speak at length with Caitlin.

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Brent Skinner 00:00
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to this the latest episode of the #HRTechChat video podcast. And with me today for the very first episode of The New Year 2023, we’re in February already, so we can’t say Happy New Year anymore. But, but I wish I could. In any event, it’s Caitlin Collins, who is an organizational psychologist, and she is the program strategy, excuse me, program strategy director at Betterworks, which is a company that develops technology and other things around sort of progressive modern performance enablement. I hope I got that right.

Caitlin Collins 00:43
That’s a good way to describe it. Hello, thank you for having me.

Brent Skinner 00:47
Absolutely. Thank you for agreeing to be on the podcast, I’m really looking forward to this episode. We are, we’re recording this, about a week and a half ahead of the big day in the middle of February, known as Valentine’s Day, whose history we won’t go into apparently, it’s actually kind of a weird history behind St. Valentine’s. And we won’t get into that. That’s a whole nother show. For whatever reason, it’s come to mean, you know, love and affection and all that. We have a theme today that’s, that’s really honestly going to resonate in that way. And let me see if I can just kind of set the stage and, and then well, actually, before I do, Caitlin, if, if you want to just sort of introduce yourself to our to our viewers, just a little bit of your background, where you’ve been why you’re where you are now, and, and all those sorts of things.

Caitlin Collins 01:51
Ooh, that’s probably a whole episode.

Brent Skinner 01:55
You can give us the Cliff Notes version!

Caitlin Collins 01:57
The elevator pitch about me. Yeah, so thank you for the introduction, my background on where I am, I think I have a real passion for what I do, honestly. And it comes from a lot of different places, I think my purpose I will say, for what I do is really to in the grand scheme of things, is to create work, help create and work environments, that better the lives of people and their families and ergo into their communities. I think that, you know, such a positive impact from organizations can influence the world, both at a small scale and a very big macro scale. So there’s an altruistic version of that. But my career really has been focused on building performance programs for global organizations, for quite a while. So my career started, really in HR, and worked my way up through my education and other experiences through consulting. And I think a big part of what I do plays in years ago, for a number of years, I volunteered as a trauma specialist. And I think that plays a lot into what I do, honestly, today, excuse me, which was like I showed up when people call 911. So being a part is such a privilege, but being a part of the most painful moments in somebody’s lives. You know, part of that is they have to go to work the next day. So at that time that happened, my big question was, well, what organizations do for people that go through big moments? What does that look like in different challenging moments? And how do we support people and help enable them to be the best they can be, without sacrificing them for a moment in time. So it lead me on this big, longer adventure, that I’ve worked through a lot of different change programs and learning programs and types of different types of performance programs, and you name it, I’ve worked in it to help kind of build a bigger philosophy around what works well, and, and what we should do and what probably we shouldn’t be doing.

Brent Skinner 04:02
Interesting. That’s all really important. I mean, it really is, I mean, it’s so funny, just in the world of work, I think in the past, it’d be two and a half years, especially but, but even before that, it was sort of an awakening occurring, where it’s actually been going for a long time, but it was gaining steam around this idea that, you know, it’s not just about, you know, the bottom line is or it is about the bottom line, but the bottom line is about more than you think it is. Right, you know, it’s not the bottom line versus the workforce or what, you know, the workforce contributes to the bottom line, but it’s really, it’s kind of a, an in in your interconnected thing. You mentioned PTSD, and you know, and I want to get back to that. But first of all, first off, I just kind of want to give people sort of the premise here that sort of the, the was the impetus for our decision to have this episode. And it’s this idea that, you know, we have these new tools, the state of the art, if you will, in thinking and technology for performance management, which we’re, actually trying to get away from the term management, even performance enablement, right. It’s, it’s really geared toward making it facilitating interaction and better outcomes. You know, we have this old, really antiquated, anachronistic model, you know, where we have the annual performance review, which no one wants to do and, and everybody crams for it. it’s just an absolute, you know, stop sort short of saying a waste of time. But it is, for the most part, are all say that. Okay, you said it, not me. But in any event, and it just, it just exacerbates all of the things we don’t want happening when we’re talking about when we’re going about activity designed to improve the performance of the people in the organization, right? You know, if you, it’s goes right back to that, you know, negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement. But what’s funny is that when we talk about the state of the art that the latest and greatest when it really is the latest and greatest, when it comes to performance enablement. There’s a tendency for it to be all ever the term you know, we’ve all heard at school all Skittles and unicorns, right, you know, just all happiness. By the way, it hurts Skittles are actually even worse for you than you thought, Oh, I love it’s good, it’s good. rainbows and unicorns. Thank goodness, I don’t like Skittles, it’s m&ms for me. But it’s, there’s a tendency to think about, it’s like, oh, it’s all gonna be great. Now, you know, every single person is going to perform better now, if you’re doing the right things. And, and most of you, a lot of me, probably the majority of you people are their performance is going to improve, and you’re going to have better leaders, it’s going to make better leaders, but there’s still there’s there will still be performance issues that you’ll need to deal with as a leader as a manager. So sorry, for the long, you know, winded sort of, you know, build up here, but I really wanted people to kind of get into the vein of this thinking and maybe let’s start there. What, what, how do these new systems help leaders? Be better managers be better leaders? And how does? How do they help them deal with? What will still be difficult situations at work?

Caitlin Collins 07:58
Yeah, that was, that’s a good place to start. I think, the more we grow, the more we evolve, the more global we get. And that’s been happening for the last 40 years, right? The Globalization of organizations with the invention of the internet, at least, is you know, the more sophisticated we get an understanding the value of how we need our people to perform and certain functions. I think a technology really enabled us a good technology enables us to help understand how to develop towards those critical skills on what we need, it helps facilitate and prompt certain parts of a process. There’s a big word that I use in Okay, maybe not a big word, but a big concept that I use within making sure you have a good performance program is a system of accountability. And to me a good technology one helps facilitate more data and really understanding you know, are how are we driving inclusivity and equitable distribution of work across the organization? How does that show up is there areas that we need to focus on it and develop because without having that data in front of us, we just don’t know. You take a stab at the dark and that’s hard to move from and hard to navigate towards. But also good technology can really be a point of accountability to help make sure hey, stay on track with this thing you have to do or hey, you haven’t talked to your employee and a longtime, you know, like there’s certain components and mechanisms that help trigger to make sure that this process is easy to be continuous. I think that’s the part of it. Well, we don’t want to do is repeat the annual performance review that doesn’t work for 12 times a year. But want to break it up and make the process as easy and as simple as possible for people to be able to execute so that it can be effective.

Brent Skinner 09:58
I love what you just said by the way we don’t want to have the annual performance review become the monthly performance review.

Caitlin Collins 10:07
I mean, it already cost organizations so much money to do this thing that doesn’t work very well.

Brent Skinner 10:12
And now you got to worry about it every month and be scared about it or, you know, just so you know, it’s not about that it’s, it’s in you talked about accountability. And maybe you could talk a little bit more about that. And also kind of segue in terms of how it goes both ways, not just accountability of the direct reports to their manager or leader, but the leaders, accountability to their, his or her direct reports. And then also, maybe share with us your thoughts on what are the things, the attributes or characteristics that make somebody a good leader?

Caitlin Collins 10:57
I definitely agree with that. I think accountability isn’t a one way street, it goes a lot of different ways in in many different directions, depending on how the organization is structured, especially if you’ve got more of a complex setup, where you’ve got dotted line managers and coaches and everything that touches different roles that touch an employee and how they perform. There is an auto I do like seminars and the one of the ones that I’ve done recently, there was some feedback I got on it, which I thought was really interesting that I’ll share because there’s a lot out there where we talk about managers, coaching their employees and giving feedback. But we also need to make sure that managers are getting upward feedback from their employees. And I think that is a scary concept, at least from what I’ve heard of managers and organizations in different forums. It seems simple enough, but it creates this vulnerability of, well, gosh, what if I get bad feedback, does that make me look bad, you know, any place where somebody’s calling you out? What you’re being presented doesn’t match what you’re trying to project, it’s very hard thing to wrestle with. So I think there’s like a gush of nothing in the right words. But there’s a hesitation in this as far as execution goes. But we can break it down and make it really simple. It doesn’t have to be so scary. And I think that that alone makes a pretty critical part of being a good manager, is being able to request that and role model those certain elements. So I think that’s one part kind of segwaying into the second part of your question on what you asked about what makes a good manager. And I think that, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of models out there, there’s a lot of characteristics, but I think it comes down to a few foundational things, honestly, that a lot of these characteristics feed from, but it’s making sure that you’ve got a good relationship and have built trust with your direct report, not to say you have to be forever family, friends, and in totally involved in each other’s personal lives. But if your direct reports, if your employees don’t trust you, there’s, that’s the hardest barrier to be able to break down to be able to actually coach them effectively, and being able to have that openness to be able to coach and share feedback back and forth. And I think the other critical part, we can go into other ones later, but another really critical one is looking at your role as a manager. What that means. And so what I mean by that is, it’s very, very common, more so before but very common for organizations to promote high performing individual contributors into manager role without providing effective training, effective development, and more. So those managers are rated their performance is based on the KPIs of their team or their functional unit, and it becomes very results driven. That doesn’t, that’s important. You mentioned that earlier on, like, the numbers are important. We’re here to do a job and have a business survive and compete in the market. Yes, it’s critical. But your role as a manager is more than that, I think, is to actually create other really great managers and leaders. So as a manager myself, if I’m looking at my direct report and say my job one is not only to execute or have my team execute, but to role model and teach them how to be really good leaders and managers in their future career, that’s a paradigm shift that I think really changes how I engage with my employees.

Brent Skinner 14:34
I love what you’re saying here and I’m kind of got two thoughts in my head because so and I want to make sure I hit on them both first, so we’ll, we’ll address this one first, you know, getting results. You tell me, what does the research say you know, is being results oriented. The best way to go get the results you want.

Caitlin Collins 15:03
Whoo. Yeah. Good. It depends. Ooh, answer. I think we’re doing the same thing. Like the audience listening on apply thinking.

Brent Skinner 15:18
I’m sorry to throw a curveball there. But okay. Because you mentioned, you know, it just got me to thinking, you know, if your individual, you know, an individual contributor, a great high performing individual contributor that, you know, it’s it. I can see, you know, it obviously makes sense, it’s intuitive, it’s logical, maybe not logical, but it makes sense, it’s understandable that they would be promoted, you know, convinced traditionally over many, many decades time, right? They’re, you know, promoted into positions of leadership or positions where they are to manage other people. And that, to me, is a false hype. That’s not necessarily true hypothesis, right? You know, it’s not necessarily true. If I’m a great individual contributor, then I’m going to be a great manager, I’m just going to intuitively know just naturally know how to be a great manager. I’ve also read that, you know, leaders are actually not born, you know, there are some intrinsic traits, but you can really develop your leadership potential. Obviously, there’s some really great, great leaders, and they have some innate talent, but there are others that maybe aren’t as great, but that you’d be trained can be sort of upskilled into being into being, you know, effective leaders and not bad leaders. And so, sorry, I’m kind of running all over. So I’m just wondering, so what’s great about the whole accountability thing in these new systems is it kind of kind of helps to surface that stuff? So let’s, what are your thoughts there? And then I’ll share with you my other thought that I had.

Caitlin Collins 17:02
Okay, so we’ve got a good lineup there going? I thought on that on your original question is, I take it back to a lot of I do, and how I formulate all kinds of stuff comes back to really how the brain works. How do we work in an environment in a sociological environment? And what does that mean? small teams, large teams, organizations, how do we respond to different stimuli and what that looks like. But there’s a long winded way to say, there’s really like, if we break it down as simple as possible, two approaches to management, and one is outcome focused. The other one is fundamental focused, I’ll call it and this is really like, The Theory X Theory Y position on where we’re motivated towards. But if I think that if, if I let me come up with a metaphor that makes it simple if, let’s say we were learning a musical instrument, right, like, and you’re teaching me how to play this musical instrument, or maybe I’m learning how to get better at it, and you keep telling me, Caitlin, you’re off rhythm, the notes that you’re hitting aren’t correct, you know, go back and keep practicing, well, if I don’t understand the fundamentals of where to put my fingers and how to move, or how to breathe correctly, what an instrument is, that’s never going to happen. So in order for me to be a better player, and to achieve outcomes, you as my manager, as my coach need to help me understand the fundamentals of what I’m doing wrong. And maybe I need to do different exercises to build up muscle strength in a different way. Right. So if we, we liken that to like a business sense, in order for me to be effective in my job and grow, whatever that looks like, be a high performer in my current role or grow, to develop to the next role, whatever that is, I have to strip it back to say, okay, the fundamentals of what I’m doing in order for me to make better, be more strategic with my customer. In order for me to be better as a salesperson, in order for me to think more broadly about a product or an engineering problem. I need to first understand how I do those basics really well. Maybe I need to improve my communication skills, collaborating with people, you know, it all comes back to a lot of our improving knowledge in certain areas, like what are those core behaviors, those core competencies I need to learn so that my outcomes are better. And I think that’s the difference to me on the difference in a manager and there is research out there. There’s actually quite a lot of research that shows it when a manager is more of an effective type of coach. That there’s like an increase. I think it was about 26% increase in productivity for their team and they also saw a decrease in turnover. I believe it was about 20%, I can go back and pull up this article. But it also increases employee engagement and employee engagement for an organization is a huge is a really important critical score that we look at, which does impact. The bottom line, though I think the synthesis is all of this is if we put other people first and consider them from a different perspective, first, the outcomes on what we see at an organizational level, from profits to revenue to performance at an organization really improves.

Brent Skinner 20:32
Oh, I love that. That’s it, let’s make sure to include that link in the in the URL that will be associated with this when it goes live. The Gartner research. Okay, yeah, they have a lot of good stuff. So by the way, did you ever play a musical instrument?

Caitlin Collins 20:57
I played the piano a long time. Yeah.

Brent Skinner 21:00
Spoken like someone who had played an instrument, I actually played an instrument in college, a woodwind instrument. And so I could kind of relate to that the whole the mechanics of learning the mechanics of the playing and getting better at that. So it made a lot of sense to me. And you’re right, you know, helping, if you can be a good coach, then then I think, by default, you’re almost being a mentor. And no, they’re not quite the same thing. But there’s very similar and, and someone who feels mentored and a good, I think there’s there are only positive connotations with mentor could be a negative. Feeling mentored, and then then, then you’re going to want to stay and you’re going to, you’re going, some of that is going to kind of you know, distill into, you know, a desire to do more and to have a more initiative and drive and be more productive. So that makes a lot of sense. It’s so great to see that the research bears that out. You mentioned trust earlier. And I couldn’t help but, but, but think of, you know, I’ve heard it from more than one person that, you know, trust is really the, the pillar, the most important pillar of, of, of a strong employer culture. Right. And so, it’s, I’ll be frank, I must admit, I haven’t delved into, you know, I haven’t. Dove? didn’t dive too deep. Excuse me. Correct. Yeah. Like, into employer code, like, how do you build employer culture? Like, how do you do it? Right. But it occurred to me, it dawned on me as you were speaking. And maybe you’ve thought of this already, probably. But the idea that, you know, starts with, you know, every single, you know, one to one relationship in the in the organization, that that’s where employer culture is built, I mean, you kind of set the kind of set the strategy, from, from leadership with the organization, here’s what we want our employee culture to be, but then you really have to carry it out person to person. And if you have leaders that are, that are that are building trust, with their direct reports, then with their teams, then you’ve, in my opinion, you’ve probably knocked down one of the biggest challenges to building a veteran player culture.

Caitlin Collins 23:35
I think that’s pretty true. You know, we don’t have to go too deep into this culture is a fascinating topic in and of itself, because you got to think about the bigger view the what’s the usually a culture is based on what’s not demanded of it. What’s not said, and what do we reinforce, that’s unspoken, more or less. And there’s pot, there’s the macro version, and there are pockets of micro version where it’s very different. And those generally are driven by the leaders of each of those teams or those departments. So yes, I do think that what you’re saying is definitely accurate. I do agree with it. If you’ve got a manager, that is let’s look at both sides of the equation here, we’ll just go with a nice one and and not so nice. But like if you’ve got a manager that’s not so kind and doesn’t, you don’t have much trust and there isn’t much integrity in the relationship. They’re in so far as maybe they speak about other people behind their back or maybe they you know, under their breath in front of people say negative things about what the CEO is asking. You know, like, if there isn’t much confidence building and not much integrity, you’ve got a pretty negative culture. And one where there might be some retaliation where people feel like if I don’t show up the way that this person wants to see me, which is very be dangerous. But if I don’t show up in the way this person wants to see me, then there’s going to be a negative consequence to me. But if you go on the other end, that’s dangerous for a lot of reasons, especially when we think about, you know, different types of people diversity and inclusion. One big passion of mine is neuro diversity, and how do we coach two people think and process differently, but I digress. On the other side of that spectrum, is you got a manager with integrity that is focused on making sure they’ve got a good relationship with their direct reports. And is a positive influence that speaks to confidently even if you don’t know the answers to say, I don’t know, this might go very wonky, but the here’s why we’re going to do it. And here’s how we’re going to try it and see what happens. When you, when you look at that from the other side of the spectrum, then they’re micro cultures much more positive, the engagements much higher, and you’ve got a bigger level of trust and influence, where you can start looking at equity distribution and feedback back and forth, and you see a lot faster progression and development and growth.

Brent Skinner 26:10
There’s a lot and what you just said, one thing that Yeah, I mean, it’s all really, really makes a lot of sense. I just fascinating, listening to you. One thing that sort of stuck out for me is this idea of, you know, you said there’s a lot of danger and we probably don’t have time to go into all the different types of dangers there are. But that did resonate with me, there’s a lot of danger, in expect in your direct reports, feeling like they have to present or show up, present themselves and in a certain sort of narrowly defined way. Every time there’s an interaction with you as the leader. That I mean, that makes a lot of sense, right? And you know, who wants to who’s going to be let’s put this, what I was going to say is who wants to be in that type of environment? But, then you’d have sort of the stodgy traditionalist say, Well, hey, that’s work, you got to be that way, right? And then we just don’t, you know, facilitate, you know, discourse here. So I’m gonna say it differently. How do you expect? How does an organization expect its employees to be their most productive selves when they when they feel like they have to be something they’re not? In, you know, in their team situations?

Caitlin Collins 27:31
Versus a good question, I don’t think you can be I like people, you know, it’s interesting, especially women are very good at masking and presenting a different self than being off in authentic to themselves, we’ll call it that way, since you mentioned authenticity earlier, too. But if the organization demands of me to perform it, to hit certain KPIs, and perform in a certain way, whatever that looks like, like, in I am not an environment where I can be myself or I feel threatened in some way, or there’s going to be retaliate, you know, all the negative things, you can throw it like this, this little, the environment that I’m in, I’m never going to be great, especially when now you know, you’re not going away, get away with dealing with people as well, it’s gonna create more stress. If more conflict, how I relate to my peers, I’m going to feel threatened more often how I relate to my peak years or to the customer. Like, there’s just no, I’m not able to relax, or come from a place of ease to build my own confidence, I’m always going to feel like I have to protect myself and put out a different image. And there’s just, you’re not gonna get very far with that, to be honest. Yeah, I think the answer is I don’t think you can to be honest,

Brent Skinner 28:50
I don’t either. I don’t either. It’s just, it’s, it’s, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of lost productivity. When there’s when there’s rigidity. I’m just looking at a time and I want to make sure we get to sort of a question that we that sort of the linchpin of all this and, and that is and that see there, it’s the question is, I wrote it down. How do we get through difficult managerial situations better with a state of the art of the thinking and technology in performance management?

Caitlin Collins 29:36
So Ooh, that is a good question. Ah, these are all actually really good questions. Um, there’s Okay, so I’m gonna answer this in two parts, okay. Being a good manager is a behavioral development. I have to learn how to be a good leader how to build relationships effectively based on where I come from, you know, have good hit. Integrity and build confidence and guide and teach people essentially, to be good at their job. It doesn’t come from demanding it comes from enabling, lifting, I firmly believe to meet for me to be a good manager, I need to lift people up and enable them to be their best selves at work. When times are hard, so in challenging situations, whatever that looks like, whatever the stress is layoffs in an organization and caused some trauma to people going back to the office, somebody having oops, somebody having personal issues in their life, whatever the case might be, that changes how we respond to stress changes our behaviors. And so as a manager need to know how to respond to that and show up differently based on what, what people need. And I know we’re short on time, but then where the technology comes in to be able to aid that I think that technology can provide very clear, timely tools. So for example, maybe I’m about to go into a meeting that isn’t going to be rainbows and ponytails or are fair, but maybe I’m allowed to go into have a difficult conversation. And in that thread, while I’m documenting it, or using some kind of template, you know, based on how I capture my notes, essentially an action items and what that looks like, you know, maybe there’s an area where I can go to pull down a references, just to remind that I need to be mindful and reflect on this, do I have all the information I need? And just to sit back and be a listener more than a talker? In a lot of cases? You know, I think, I think a good technology offers tools at the right moment for when the manager needs it in different circumstances, because life happens, craziest parts of his just gonna show up. And I think it’s our responsibility as an organization to make sure that our managers have the right tools when they need them, so that they can be effective.

Brent Skinner 32:02
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of sense, you know, almost providing the leader with some mental prosthetics, right? You know, it’s surfacing up, surfacing up a reminder here and in a dialog box or something, or, you know, or just, or just making that, or just kind of knocking out in terms of being a factor, any kind of, you know, technological impediments to having that conversation, you know, having a really smooth sort of, you know, meeting online meeting technology, something that’s, you know, that’s going to facilitate all the types of communication interaction. interactive communication is going to happen there. Yeah, yeah. This is, this has been a fantastic really. Yeah really just fascinating topic. And I, and I know that we could go on and on and on and on about it. I know myself, I can talk about this kind of stuff all day long. And I can tell that you can too.

Caitlin Collins 33:10
this is a quick conversation.

Brent Skinner 33:14
We’ve always scratched the surface. So thankful for having you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Caitlin Collins 33:26
Thank you for having me. Honestly, this was a pleasure and so much fun and one of my passion topics, so I appreciate you letting me be here. Thank you so much.

Brent Skinner 33:36
Oh, absolutely. Take care. Caitlyn.

Caitlin Collins 33:40
you as well. Thank you. Happy Valentine’s Day.

Brent Skinner 33:43
Oh yes. Happy Valentine’s Day. Remember leaders, be empathetic.

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