#HRTechChat: James Galvin, CEO and Co-Founder of Starcircle

The talent acquisition of today is nonlinear. By this, we mean it’s all one thing, not a siloed process with many activities taking place in an orderly fashion or readily apparent, repeatable sequence. James Galvin should know. Our guest for this episode of the #HRTechChat video podcast, James is CEO and co-founder of Starcircle, a Cork, Ireland–headquartered vendor of cloud software and services designed to result in truly effective talent acquisition campaigns by looking at these as holistic efforts and considering sourcing first, and not last — an idea embodied in a term Starcircle uses: long-tail talent.

Take artificial intelligence, for example. It’s difficult to discuss modern talent acquisition without mentioning AI. This is because AI has entered the fray of talent acquisition for good. This is not hype. At the same time, however, “there’s a lack of understanding around how AI is going to fit into talent acquisition,” said James during the podcast. “And one thing’s for sure is: it’s not going to do your work for you. ”

The issue goes back to the tried-and-true old adage about relying on computers: garbage in, garbage out. Known perhaps even better for its acronym, GIGO is the idea that it doesn’t matter how powerful a computer is: if the data going in is bad (i.e., garbage), the computer will spit out something of very little value (i.e., again, garbage).

AI is the result of highly advanced, sophisticated computing, which of course means that GIGO applies to AI, too. Say you’re an employer. Say there’s an open role. Not that it necessarily matters for the example, but say it’s an executive role that you’re trying to fill. You’re certain of the qualities and characteristics you want or believe you need in new candidates for an open role. But who’s to say your certainty is warranted?

Very few ask the question, and once you inform the AI in your talent acquisition technology with whatever ideas you have, you’ll get the candidates you requested. The problem is, your idea of what you want or need is probably a little or way off the mark when it comes to what you actually need or should want. Apply the AI without any thought to this deep consideration, and never mind the disservice to diversity: you risk perpetuating deep-seated organizational dysfunction.

Talent acquisition is no longer a clean chain of neatly defined in-tandem events or occurrences culminating in a hire. Just as there is an emerging new talent acquisition suite for the future of work, in other words, so there is an emerging new process to go about finding and acquiring new talent. As the one who is planning talent acquisition for your organization, you could take this holistic view of talent acquisition and think of yourself as being at the center of a circle. A circle is a nice visual for the idea of something being nonlinear, after all.

On this episode of the podcast, James and I went on what you might characterize as a walkabout. AI was just one topic. Our discussion touched on talent acquisition in a deep way:

  • how approaching recruiting as if it were a sales funnel is a mistake, James believes — precisely because talent acquisition has become so nonlinear
  • why sourcing is anything but transactional and should be the first (instead of last) thing employers rethink in their approach to recruiting
  • what friction in hiring is and how lessening this friction helps employers engage with their talent pipelines and avert candidate abandonment down the line

Be sure to watch this episode.

Our #HRTechChat Series is also available as a podcast on the following platforms:

Apple iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/3sixty-insights/id1555291436?itsct=podcast_box&itscg=30200
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0eZJI1FqM3joDA8uLc05zz
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/3sixty-insights
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-965220588
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6aDtrRPYoCIrnkeOYZRpAQ/
iHeartRadio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-3sixty-insights-78293678/
Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjkyNDY0ODI1OS9zb3VuZHMucnNz
Amazon Music & Audible: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7e7d809b-cb6c-4160-bacf-d0bb90e22f7c
PlayerFM: https://player.fm/series/3sixty-insights
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/3sixtyinsights/
Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/iaopd0r7
blubrry: https://blubrry.com/1460785/
Castbox: https://castbox.fm/channel/id4113025
ivoox: https://www.ivoox.com/en/perfil-3sixty-insights_a8_listener_25914379_1.html
Podchaser: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/3sixty-insights-1718242
Pocket Cast: https://pca.st/iaopd0r7
Deezer: https://www.deezer.com/us/show/3029712
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/3sixty-insights/PC:1000613511
Listen Notes: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/3sixty-insights-3sixty-insights-DgeU6AW42hn/
PodBean: https://www.podbean.com/podcast-detail/9nugf-1e0a27/3Sixty-Insights-Podcast
Podchaser: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/3sixty-insights-1718242
Podcast Addict: https://podcastaddict.com/podcast/3sixty-insights/3319198
Tune In: https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business–Economics-Podcasts/3Sixty-Insights-TechChat-p1529087/

See a service missing that you use? Let our team know by emailing research@3SixtyInsights.com.


Brent Skinner 00:00
Welcome everybody, to this latest episode of the #HRTechChat video podcast. And with me today I have a very, very interesting guest. And we have a super interesting topic, the long tail of talent. His name is James Galvin, and He is the CEO and co-founder of Starcircle, which is a company based in Cork, Ireland. And it’s later in on a Friday for him than it is for me on the US East Coast today. Welcome, James.

James Galvin 00:31
Thanks very much, Brent, thanks for having me on.

Brent Skinner 00:34
Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us. Before we get into our discussion today, could you possibly just introduce yourself to our viewers, where you come from professionally? What, what landed you into what you do? And sort of what was the inspiration for the founding of Starcircle and all that kind of stuff?

James Galvin 01:03
Sure thing? Well, my name is James I’m based here in Cork in Ireland. And for the past 16 years I I’ve been working with, with big tech and pharma companies to help overcome hiring complexity and hiring challenges that that related that specifically from a standpoint of sourcing talent and tech enabled sourcing solutions. So my original background, I was a tech guy, a dabbled in many different areas of technology, Linux systems, administration, security, software development, and, and was always a little bit adjacent to, to the world of recruitment. And, and I started getting interested in the crossover, where technologies is helping to improve recruitment. And one of the things I would I would always say, is that a little bit of tech goes a long way in the world that hasn’t actually, you know, certainly not when we started out back in 2006, and seven had not actually been really modernized that much by emerging technology. This is something that’s, that’s set to change. Now, and in the years ahead, I think everybody can feel that, but that, but that’s what got me interested on and more interested than ever now. And then how things are unfolding.

Brent Skinner 02:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is an exciting time to talent acquisition, things are things are happening, you know, we’d have sort of an emerging new talent acquisition calculus, a suite for it and a new sort of approach to it. Let’s start with star circle itself. Maybe you could just share with us how did you come up with a name for Starcircle? And what’s the what’s the concept behind the company? What does the company do?

James Galvin 02:44
That’s an interesting question, because I probably have to go back a little bit far to answer it, I’ll go back to 2006. And seven, when we when we started, originally, we were working with our product was called V source. And back then sourcing was very different. You know, we take a client wreck, you go on to job boards, you’d find resumes, submit them to the recruiter and get a thumbs up or a thumbs down. It was very straightforward in many ways, and the skill was involved in the skill involved around finding the candidate, you know, using Boolean strings that were seen as some kind of arcane art. And, you know, back then the main resource people use as given what resource was about why was it called that? And some people would say, Is it is it virtual speaking to the kind of tech, cloud based nature, what we’re doing? Or is it you know, is the V for Vietnam based on you know, we had a large research team out there, I used to say, actually, V was represented the funnel, presented the sourcing funnel, because we’re all about everything we did was about, about that funnel, you know, and when we talk, we talk about funnel metrics all the time, and the volume and the ratio between the different stages of the hiring funnel. And everything you know, or Northstar was really about, about getting more into the top of the funnel and the top stages of the funnel, getting things moving there. But over the years, you know, sourcing changed a lot. And it was no longer this simple transactional activity where you can just get a rack and go out there and companies started to think more about, about the longer term needs of the organization and being a bit more proactive. And if you’re dealing with challenging, highly competitive markets, like we’ve seen for the past number of years, where talent is really scarce. You using the traditional approach, you’d burn through the talent pool very quickly, and you find yourself but with nobody left out there to hire. And so we started to work with our clients on a slightly more dynamic approach to take, you know, to iterate beyond that. Take a broader perspective, going beyond the original talent pool to see where can we can where we can expand out to going beyond the job description, challenging a lot of the parameters that would be in there, finding where the bottlenecks are, and our value prop positions shifted a little bit, was no longer just getting the candidates, it was about this, this process of, of drying up the talent pool that that’s there based on your current viewpoint and then figuring out how to go beyond that, to unlock another broader talent pool, this continuous process of going broader. But, but our clients didn’t really didn’t, that that’s what that’s not where they saw us fitting in, you know, we were, we were the kind of the data guys we go out and we get the candidates and, and, and so we did this kind of like in a covert manner. And so this is why we had to rebrand and we kind of this is where it starts actually emerged.

Brent Skinner 05:42
Interesting, interesting. Okay, that that’s very interesting. And I know we’re gonna talk about this. As viewers know, we, we always have conversations with our guests before they’re actually guests on the podcast. And we’ve, we’ve had some very interesting conversations, James, and I know that we’re going to get to, you know, how, how we can think about recruiting as sales and also not think about it as sales. But, but one of the things that strikes me there, which would you describe this, you know, is having that sort of that it’s, there’s the the analogy in sales, or the parallel of sales is, you know, having your leads your leads dry up, right, you don’t want that to happen, you need just like you need new customer leads, you need new candidate leads, you need to keep that pipeline stuffed. So maybe that’s a good segue actually into what longtail what is meant by the concept of long tail talent. What should hiring organizations do to get better at finding it?

James Galvin 06:41
That was the traditional approach, you have your job, right, you go out there, posted on the website, advertising a job board, maybe get some referrals from your staff, and, you know, plug in a search into LinkedIn and see what comes back. And, you know, there’s a few things beyond that, but, but you’ll quickly get the low hanging fruit, you’ll quickly get, you know, 80% of the talent pool, perhaps in some cases, that, that, that’s easy to come by. Part of the challenge is everybody else can find that too. It’s well represented, you know, your profiles are full of keywords, or you’re actively looking or whatever it might be? And what are you going to do with the other 20%? And how are you going to tap into that, it’s much very different process, it’s a different approach, these ultra passive candidates, you know, not only you have to search for them differently, but you have to treat them differently, to engage with them differently. And, and, and it really requires a different mindset. And a lot of the time, people think it’s just about finding, you know, I won’t find candidates that aren’t on LinkedIn, you know, they might very well be on LinkedIn, they’re just not showing up in your searches, because they’re not, they’re not stuffed with keywords. Or they might be showing up in your searches, and you’re skipping over them for one reason or another. So, so that, you know, that we’ve, we’ve been helping companies to kind of take a step backwards a bit. And in every case, find, you know, so what are the what is it that you’re uncovering the canvas that that you’re finding, unable to engage with and able to entice through the process? And then where is the portion of the talent pool that that is not either they’re not being found to not be engaged, or they’re not participating in the process. So there’s, this turns out to be kind of a, a complex situation where there’s many different factors at play. And, you know, we work with our clients to help explore that. And it could be something, you know, it could be a candidate experience, you know, candidates are falling through the cracks, and they’re not moving into the interview process, because, you know, they have to have to fill out a big long form on the website, or it could be that the job description itself is not optimal. And so there’s, so there’s a much different process apply to getting that, that final 20% of the talent pool than there would be in the initial low hanging fruit.

Brent Skinner 09:03
Interesting, interesting. And one of the things that struck me there is, so first of all, yes, we right, want to be finding the exact same people that everyone else is finding, because then you’re, then the competition is fierce, and it may not even be the best people. I’m sure there are several good people in those pools. But, you know, obviously many that aren’t necessarily so you want to find that sort of top talent, we hear this term passive talent, which is I think, is probably fits into this equation a bit. But reaching those other people. One of the that 20% I think that you mentioned one thing that you’ve said there that that made me think is, you know, you’re going well, just the totality what you shared right there, made me think you know, this is this is almost thinking about, about talent acquisition and in the opposite direction in reverse, which may not which may actually be the proper direction to think about it? Or is there any one direction to think about talent acquisition or looking at it sort of holistically, what we’re talking about? What you’re describing is, is, is sort of consulting with your customers to really help them focus on the sourcing part of it first, or, or very, very squarely on that, as opposed to maybe some other pieces of the puzzle.

James Galvin 10:25
Yeah, that’s right. It’s, firstly, kind of overcoming this idea that, that that recruitment is just an add on to HR and social is just an add on tacked on to recruitment. And it’s a low value feeder for the recruitment team. So I think we’re well beyond that now. So sin is not this function that just feeds into recruitment teams. And, and you see, a lot of tech companies in the US, for example, where the sources are, you know, really senior people are very tech savvy data analysts almost. And it’s something we’re not seeing in Europe, to the same extent, but I think it’ll come it’ll come around. And what is the value that sourcing brings? And what, what are the byproducts of the sourcing process? Well, there’s, you know, you what you’re doing is you’re developing an understanding of the market, the higher ability, the compensation, the availability of skills that are out there, all these things that that are really critical and valuable, if they were integrated that into your workforce planning and into your hiring strategy. And we worked with companies who’ve seen it so many times over the years where, you know, a core, the entire corporate strategy will get a green light over with massive assumptions being made in relation to their ability to hire, and execute a particular hiring plan, which is almost like an afterthought, we just, we just take for granted that we’re going to be able to get all of those people in the areas that that we expect. And what happens is that talent acquisition gets handed a bunch of wrecks that they’ve then got to go and fill, and they didn’t have any say in it. And they hand that over the sources, and you’re totally gonna go out and get a bunch of a bunch of people. But, you know, a better approach is to integrate these two processes is this is a fact you mentioned about what the start circle name, well, let’s start circle name. And the circle, in fact, came from the idea of this feedback loop between workforce planning, strategic HR and, and sourcing, because they’re, they’re continuously integrated around, maybe before your job descriptions go live, before you’ve created the wreck that you want to hire for, you must, at least in part, probe the talent pool and see what’s out there, what skills are available, and the more the more you can do this better you can get at it, it’ll change the shape of your organization over time. And you will take into account trends in the market, you know, new skills that are emerging skills and job titles that are kind of dying out. And you’ll be a couple of steps ahead of that. Because you’ll have the market intelligence fueling your workforce planning and then your performance information coming back into to inform your sourcing strategy. So it becomes this constant loop between Torstein and HR.

Brent Skinner 13:08
Yeah, yeah, it’s absolutely fascinating. And one thing that I’m kind of hearing you say, is that, you know, or I’m inferring, I guess, is that sourcing isn’t transactional, it’s a much bigger thing than that. And also that, that there’s really a new talent acquisition process emerging, you know, and just, if I may pontificate for a moment here, from my perch here, you know, honestly, the technology for talent acquisition is sort of limited or been a limiting factor on how we can kind of approach talent acquisition for a long time, because it was developed in terms of sort of this siloed approach. So there was, there were sourcing solutions, by the way, I recall those bad old days where, you know, the lost art of Boolean logic, you know, in your opinion, and there they were trainers, you know, gets 1520 years ago, who, who were, uh, you know, that was their whole thing was showing people how to be as adept at that proficient is that as possible to find to source the right candidates? And we’re well beyond that. But, you know, we have we’ve had this sort of, we had this sort of very, sort of very clean buckets and talent acquisition, you have your ATS you have, you know, your maybe your onboarding technology, you have your, you know, you have that maybe that in outbound recruiting module or whatever, and, and whatnot, and it’s kind of just been a limiting factor, but we’re kind of we’re moving away from that. Absolutely. And, but let’s, uh oh, all roads lead to AI these days, right? Especially in talent acquisition, you can talk about talent acquisition with AI we see a lot of AI predicated solutions out there. In there’s definitely a place for AI in this space, but where do Where do a lot of these solutions kind of get it wrong? And because we talked about that I really want interviewers to kind of hear this piece of it, because it’s absolutely essential.

James Galvin 15:06
I would like yourself, I’m very excited by the developments that AI are bringing in, and things that we can do now and we’ll be able to do more of in the future. They definitely add a lot. But I’m also concerned by, you know, the understanding that’s there and lack of understanding around how AI is going to fit in to talent acquisition. And one thing’s for sure, is, it’s not going to do your work for you. And anybody who’s used chat GPT, for example, knows how fantastic can be I how useful it can be, it’s really great in certain use cases, but a huge part of the value that you get from chat, GBT, for example is, is provided by the person who’s sitting there, doing the prompting, tweaking the prompt, you know, typing the same message 15 different ways to get the result that that they want from Chad GPT. So there’s a lot of work by the expert by the human to manage these processes. And, and an AI is not a silver bullet that companies can sit back and rely on it’s, it’s still going to need that expertise. So the real secret sauce, I think, is understanding where the human expertise and where the AI can splice together and intertwine to for the best results. So, so one of the problems around searching and sourcing for candidates, is that AI still? Well, as you would expect, it gives you what you asked for. So if you’re going and asking, you know, I want I want this, you’ve got very specific job title, job requirements, job req. It’ll give you back results that that meet that and, and if you want something different, you’re going to have to ask it for something different. So you’re back at square one where, where you’re continuously tweaking and adapting your prompt. And, and that’s the only way to do it correctly. Because if you get if it starts giving you results that don’t match your question, then you’re going to tell it that it’s broken. But if you give it, you know, it’s giving you back results that do ask that do fit what you’re asking, then it’s done what it’s supposed to do, but it hasn’t provided value beyond that low hanging fruit we talked about earlier, it’s not tapping into the longtail, it’s not, it’s not finding candidates that are a little bit outside the bull’s eye. And a lot of the systems now the AI hiring tools are heavily dependent on the keywords that you put in, and people that that don’t explicitly display those keywords, you know, in their profiles, and we’re talking about passive candidates, particular inactive candidates who have a full resume, no problem. But you’re talking about passive candidates who, who don’t stuff their profile or on LinkedIn, or who, or maybe even on a different website where they haven’t listed all their skills, they just they just won’t show up. And the AI can only do so much.

Brent Skinner 17:59
Yeah, that’s so important. You’re really hitting us something that we have sort of our archetype of is a higher, I’m using the royal we, you know, as a hiring organization, you have your archetype of who you think is the is the great fit for this new open rolling space is often sort of based on based on an incumbent or maybe someone who just left, right and in that so understandable that you would that a hiring organization would think that way. But it is limiting in terms of in terms of how the organization might develop in the future. And it’s in it’s in there. Certainly, there’s a humility in being the hiring organization in terms of saying, Okay, I don’t know, maybe I don’t know who the next person I need is to fill this role. Maybe do I need this role? Maybe do that? That’s absolutely correct. You may very well, but maybe I need some other roles that I don’t know about yet. And now we’re getting a little bit outside of the scope of this conversation, but at the same time, it’s just this idea that, that and I think that’s actually a little bit, I don’t know, if I’m using the word, I wrote it correctly here, but let’s just say it right, you know, because they’re, by exercising some humility. In the use of AI, we’re actually it’s not it’s, you’re actually helping to increase the potential, the potential impact, positive impact of the of the AI, and that, that’s a lot of things that those AI solutions, they just kind of take the taken and learn what the using organization is telling them and the using organization that that’s man that’s a huge false postulate, just to assume that the hiring organization using the AI has a good handle on what they need.

James Galvin 19:59
That’s right. Yeah. And we’ve seen this before, as well with, some AI, high profile cases whereby the, the AI in hiring has exacerbated biases that already existed in the organization. I mean, a lot of people say, you know, AI and, you know, kind of more data driven talent acquisition is a really good thing. And it is great to have the objective metrics and the data driven approach, but, but one of the things with AI and machine learning is, is, is if you don’t know, you know, a lot of the time, it’s kind of a bit of a black box, and you don’t know what it’s making decisions on a it can, it can pose a danger, and definitely replicate some biases that might be existing in the organization. And, you know, the idea of when particularly, we see a lot of companies who were whereby diversity is high on the agenda, and they’re looking to get people, you know, from different backgrounds, and but, but, as you mentioned, the work enough job descriptions that have been copy pasted for the last 10 years, and it doesn’t really add up. If you’re, you say, you’re out to hire people that are different, but, but your entire recruitment processes is geared towards hiring people that that match your particular archetype. So the solution is, is to go broader, is to reduce maybe the certainty and expand your search as much as you reasonably can. Now, if you’re if you’re hiring, you know, in certain environments, and lab or medical device or something like that, you will need certain qualifications, absolutely. But you really have to challenge yourself and see where certain parameters can be relaxed, where we can take a broader approach. And, you know, I see programs like these extended internship programs that might last for a year, or where you can really give passive candidates a chance, even if they don’t tick all the boxes upfront, but they, but they may have the ability to perform in the role or the role itself might, might evolve or might tweak slightly. So the first step anyway, is always to start with a good understanding of what’s out there on the market. And continuously validate and refresh the job descriptions that you’re working on.

Brent Skinner 22:32
Yeah, I think you’d bring up. And this is something that we wanted to talk a little bit about, like you bring up a point that this is a lot of the solutions out there, they and rightly so. Or no then or, you know, they’re responding to a demand, they have sort of they’ll, they’ll guarantee a certain percentage of diverse candidates, which is, you know, that’s good. It’s a good thing. But, but really getting to those diverse candidates, I think it’s this sort of a more of a mechanical way of looking at it sort of just kind of like going like going through the motions. Again, not that it’s that not that it isn’t a good thing to do that. But at the same time to really get those diverse candidates, just like you said, you really need to sort of rethink what you’re looking for. At the very outset, you’re and you’re going to more I’d say more organically and naturally, authentically, reach those, those diverse candidates that you’re going to engage to, to bring into bring into the into the fold. I want to get to something here around hiring friction. Because we You talk a lot about hiring friction. We’ve had some conversations around that. What is it? How much of it should we eliminate? How much should we retain? What is the goal here with hiring friction? Am I even asking the right questions here?

James Galvin 24:02
Yeah, I think so when, you know, as I mentioned, when we were realizing that sourcing is not as we’re not going to be successful if the client is expecting us to come back with list of candidates to fill a wreck where, where there’s other factors that are that are going to prevent them from being able to tap into the long tail of talent and hire candidates that are outside their field of vision. So we started to explore what are all those other factors that are going to affect an influence your ability to be successful in hiring, and we work with some fantastic analysts over the last 18 months to develop this model for what we call hiring friction. And, and what this is it’s a measure of recruitment capability effectiveness. So it’s a measure of how, how good your recruitment function is, in many ways and it takes into account 12 different components. So this is starting from something Like your demand alignment, and how well aligned the recruitment team is with, with the business and the long term needs of the organization, through things like color market, understanding how well you understand actually what’s out there in the market, you know, the compensation, the skills and, and your position in the market, your, your employer brand, and how much how much clout and ability, you have to actually get the attention of passive content or all the way through things like, you know, your candidate experience, their technology enablement, and, and the availability of data and the data integrity, every single one of these things affects your ability to hire. And if we think about sourcing, in the context of just, you know, here’s my wreck, give me a list of candidates, it’s, you’re gonna hit a brick wall very quickly. But if we start seeing it as a web of integrated components that can be gradually improved and developed over a longer period of time, then then it’s a game changer.

Brent Skinner 26:00
Yeah. If you have too much friction in your hiring process, and obviously, your it’s your talent acquisition process, right? Your that’s going to dissuade or that that’s going to that’s, it’s put this way, it’s, it’s challenging enough to find and engage that longtail talent, and to get them because they’re not necessarily but maybe they’re looking, but they’re not necessarily right, to get them engaged in maybe sort of moving, it’s like getting a like a, like a shy cat to come to you, right? Anything happens, they’re going to be, you know, shooting off there, there’s going to be you know, you know, abandonment of the process, candidate abandonment. And so to get rid of that, that, that that friction, you’re maximizing the potential for those folks to actually stay in the fold to remain in the fall so that you can actually tap them for when you need them, and bring them into the process. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It’s a huge, huge deal. We alluded to this earlier, and I want to get back to it here. Obviously, there’s a and I think, ultimately, this is, from my perspective, or from where I sit, it seems like a good thing. There’s more and more of a sales mindset being applied to talent acquisition. And it seems to me to be a good thing, because there’s a lot more sort of, there’s more, there’s more is, it’s, it’s a word, it’s a more, it’s a more solid process and sales, like they’re really paying attention to Okay, who are the leads, right? Where are they in the process? Is it warm lead is a cold lead, you know, is a lead generation, all this kind of stuff like that. They’re really focused on that. And that’s good, because they forget, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of a precursor to getting better results. And I think talent acquisition can benefit from that sort of attitude. But at the same time, we talked about this, and it’s really important, you know, why is it deeply flawed to think of talent acquisition as a sales funnel?

James Galvin 28:17
Yeah, Well, you’re dead, right, that those, I mean, when we saw the sales and marketing language creeping into talent acquisition, I mean, well, even though even the term talent acquisition itself only really emerged over the last 10 years and just came everywhere, it was a really good thing. And there’s a lot of great stuff that came out and you think about the long term a little bit more, in certain ways around your, your, your forecasting and, and your metrics, and, and all of that, but, but there’s a lot of issues, I mean, firstly, the concept of the funnel itself. I as you mentioned that it points to a linear process, which is which is really no longer the case. And sales and marketing have realized this. Now, in recent years, I mean, HubSpot. HubSpot killed off their funnel. And they said, they explicitly say this as well, that it’s a flywheel now and they only speak about their flywheel and if you talk about the funnel there, then we talked about the flywheel which, which is which is far better and, and represents a lot more, because, you know, you’re, you’re selling not just to cold prospects out there in the market, but you’re selling to, to your upselling you with your customers, and you’re getting former customers back into the fold. And there’s this continuous lifecycle, and when recruitment we’re seeing the same things, it’s, it’s not just, you know, an endless profile, an endless parade of kind of strangers coming through here, but we’ve got alumni, we’ve got referrals, we’ve got people who, who we engage with in the past that might not be a fit right now but might be a fit in the future and, and we’ve got our employer brand to consider and all these kinds of things. So, so in many ways that There’s great benefits to a sales and marketing mindset. But there’s also risks. And one of the risks being that linearity of the sales process that that we often see when second one, too is, is the way that you incentivize and manage your recruitment team and your sources. If you have a sourcing team. My experience is that they tend to be geared towards hiring quota caught off placements. And you often see kind of an overload by design is that, you know, we’ll see how much you can kind of recruit or possibly handle. And let’s just dump that on. That’s how many recruiters we’re going to hire, you know, so, so if you’re overloaded and chasing a quota chasing placements all the time, as you would expect from an account exec, you’re, you’re not going to be able to do a lot of the things that are maybe a little bit further away from the money, and when it got in terms of placements. And that includes speaking to those candidates that that could be fantastic, but they don’t take all the boxes. So when you think about diverse candidates, candidates from a slightly different background, who don’t look exactly alike, like the archetype we talked about earlier, are they worth a phone call or not? Well, if you’ve got a room to breathe, and if you if you’ve got time to have conversations with prospects and learn a little bit and delve about into other alternatives fulfilling this requirement, then you might have that conversation. But if you’re if you’re chasing a quota, and you’re back to back then then you’re going to overlook those people who are just outside the bullseye. And so there needs to be something in your organization that’s, that’s dedicated to that more exploratory function, that that’s not tied to this reactive quota that’s always going to keep them in this hamster wheel. And in my opinion, this is what sourcing is. And in the era now of information overload, the Sorcerer is the one at the coalface in a position potentially, to reconcile the long term needs of the business with the with the reality of the talent pool. It’s no longer just about getting resumes, but it’s about exploring continuously building up that Intel continues to build it up the pipelines and that, that, that community and then and then using all that Intel, feed it back into HR as a business partner.

Brent Skinner 32:19
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think you put it really well there. It’s that relationship building there’s relationship building and sales to but it’s much bigger piece of it in recruiting and you gotta give your you got to give your, your sources the wide enough berth so that they can actually engage in that in that relationship building without worrying about whether they’re producing a lead potential candidate into the system. Because it’s understood that they’re doing a little bit more than that something deeper. This is just, I’m looking at the time. This this is just time got flies by when we were having a good conversation, talking about interesting things. I mean, this has just been absolutely phenomenal. James, thank you so much for being a guest of ours here. This is really important stuff, anybody who’s involved in talent acquisition. You’re out there, make sure that you’re thinking about this in a different way. They’re new ways to think about it and you can be much more strategic and effective and achieve the results you want. Thank you so much, James.

James Galvin 33:31
Thanks very much, Brent.

Brent Skinner 33:35
Absolutely. Take care.

Share your comments: