#HRTechChat: Talent Management — It Will Blend

Posted on by

It’s been about a month since my colleague Jen Dole and I dropped our very first mutual episode of the #HRTechChat podcast. Today’s is the second installment in this new internal series wherein we will discuss various issues facing professionals whose day-to-day lives intersect with human resources and human capital management and how and why technology fits into the equation.

Jen is now well past her 90-day mark here at 3Sixty Insights. When she joined us, we seriously considered whether to label her practice area something other than talent management. It has become a traditional term, after all, and part of us wanted to be forward-thinking and novel. Ultimately, we landed on the side of tradition, but we continue to wonder when exactly it makes sense today to refer to talent management as, well, talent management….

Conceived by McKinsey & Company in 1997, according to Wikipedia, the concept of talent management itself was once a novel take on the so-called softer aspects of human capital management, things like performance management, succession planning, compensation management, and, depending on who’s talking, learning management and career development, too. And, in that time, an age when systematization in HCM was in its infancy, HR departments far and wide, from the leanest at the smallest companies to the most developed at the largest, were busy enough to approach talent management as siloed activities to tamp down. This continued for years.

Fast-forward to today, however, and the benefit of hindsight reveals that the practice of so-coined talent management never comprised discrete, neatly defined activities; it was just the relatively archaic state of the technology for it holding us back, forcing us to contemplate things rigidly. The state of the art of technology for HCM today has since evolved to accommodate the fluid nature of what we’ve long identified as talent management. And we are now at the point where the conventional domains of traditional talent management blend together every day in sophisticated organizations where HR has embraced this state of the art and the forward-thinking workflow that goes along with it. New terms such as the future of work and the employee experience reflect the reality and help these HR teams show and exercise their strategic worth to the C-suite.

But don’t say any of this to those aforementioned lean HR teams at small organizations. Regale them with tales of a progressive employee experience or a bright future of work, and it may not even make sense to them. For them, it’s probably best to call the softer side of HR by its traditional name, talent management. This is because every organization starts with nothing when it comes to HR, and there will always be those among us systematizing their HCM, absolutely needing to approach talent management as an array of discrete, siloed operations in need of order.

It may be hard to believe, but this is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg of what Jen and I managed to cover in what felt like the shortest 35 or so minutes ever. I encourage anyone reading this to listen in. The term talent management may yet go away, eventually. In the meantime, however, we’ll call it just that for the foreseeable future. Even as the activities of talent management continue to blend beyond the vision of a now-quarter-century-old concept, the term remains a useful signpost for all.

Our #HRTechChat Series is also available as a podcast on the following platforms:

See a service missing that you use? Let our team know by emailing research@3SixtyInsights.com.

Transcript:

Brent Skinner 00:00
Welcome, everybody to the latest episode of the HRTechChat, video podcast. Almost got that wrong. Thank you everyone for joining us. This is the next installment in what’s going to be a regular series of internal HR tech chats that I myself, Brent Skinner, co-founder of 3Sixty Insights we’ll be having with Jen dole, who is past her 90-day mark or, you know, milestone with us, and really, really acting as if she’s been here a lot longer than that. You know, it’s great, great. I mean that in a good way. Thank you. Really, sort of making her mark. And it’s just a fantastic, wonderful addition to the team. If we readers, viewers, listeners, however, you’re attending this podcast, we don’t know. Jen and I were both at Cornerstone OnDemand. Before being here together. 3Sixty Insights, a little bit of background there. And Jen,

Jennifer Dole 01:07
different way of thinking about hiring alumni, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Brent Skinner 01:14
It is pretty cool. What’s even cooler is that we didn’t even know we were at Cornerstone at the same time until we met long not long before we both left Cornerstone at the big 20 year anniversary bash and palm spring. That was a fun time. Very fun time.

Jennifer Dole 01:33
I have a little fear of missing out not being that convergence this year, but

Brent Skinner 01:41
Me too. Me too. But we didn’t miss out on anything at the 20 year anyway. So yeah, so Jen, you’ve joined us to handle do a real deep dive into talent management, what we’re calling talent management. And today, you know, you and I had a really interesting conversation on the back channel offline sort of the other day around. What does talent management mean today? What are we why are we calling it that? Where’s the term going? What are some of the new terms around it these days? And that’s what we want to talk about today. It’s going to be kind of a, you know, a freeform conversation, we have a few things we want to touch on. But I mean, what are your thoughts on this?

Jennifer Dole 02:30
Yeah, well, when we first started talking about this, it was, you know, how HR technology today is just blending into different areas. So you see recruiting technology, touching into talent management technology, as probably the best example where you see recruiters moving into internal talent, mobility, who owns that? And we just got to thinking like, what should we be calling this? Is it talent management? Is it even human resources anymore? Is it people leaders? Whose owns the employee experience? I mean, it just, it was confusing us. I can only imagine how it confuses that, you know, the buyers during this experience?

Brent Skinner 03:20
Yeah, it’s really interesting, you know, and frankly, this kind of touches on something a little bit bigger than we want to focus on today. But I want to bring it up here is that I think about the terms human resources versus human capital management, and I almost prefer human resources, because at least the humans are we our resources, supposed to capital to be managed. It’s some of the terms that we use in this space, I think are a little bit unfortunate. But they’re sort of their was the artifacts from from a bygone era when, when the terms we’re using today did feel better than what was being called what it was being called before that. And also when there was sort of the advent of the entire notion of talent management, which I think, start keep me honest here, I think was around 30, maybe about 30 years ago, when it really started emerging and becoming somebody coined the term I forget who it was, should have researched before Congress. Yeah.

Jennifer Dole 04:19
Well, I think, you know, it started as personnel. Oh, yeah. Right. That’s what I remember it as long, long time ago.

Brent Skinner 04:29
And you know, what, sorry, I just got to kind of shoehorn this in and reminds me, there’s some places still call it the personnel department, especially in the public domain. We actually had a conversation with the CHRO, this was a while almost two years ago now. But we had a conversation with the then new CHRO or then sort of new CHRO and city of Memphis. And they brought her in and they wanted to do an entire sort of employer culture change. And one of the things that They did, I believe, is they changed the name from the from calling a personnel department to I think HR. So you know, kind of an she did a bunch of stuff that was really interesting. And that that’s not what this is about today either. But what’s, what’s really interesting here is that, you know, we have this, so we call it talent management here at 360 insights. But but we’re fully aware of the fact we’re cognizant of the fact that it’s that it’s not, it’s, it’s a lot more blending, like you said today, even that even the conventional silos of talent management summary if I’m missing any but compensation, compensation, planning, succession management, I always mix those up it whether it’s planning or management on one or the other says little mind cramp I have, but then there’s performance management, and, and probably something else that I’m missing. But these are very well defined sort of silos. And it’s really interesting today, I would say unless you’re sort of a new, like a smaller company, just trying to get your wrap your heads around systematize, your HR, right. Unless you’re that, I would say it’s even a mistake to go to a vendor thinking, I have a performance management silo problem to solve, or to be a vendor and go to go to a user or prospect and say, listen to them and say, Oh, yes, we have a price performance management silo solution for you that that, to me, is just we were beyond that. When you get a get away from small businesses, but

Jennifer Dole 06:39
there’s so much to unpack with what you just said, Brent. I’m going to, I’m gonna say, where do we begin? Because I think that’s probably what HR teams are saying, particularly in the smaller organizations where they’re very lean, and they’re responsible for everything. Where do they begin? Yeah. Where do they are reading about all these trends in workforce intelligence, and the future of work? Where do they begin? What does it mean for them?

Brent Skinner 07:11
Well, honestly, to be a little bit ironic here, they probably should think of it more as a siloed thing, yes. systematize thing, right. And this is, this is what we’re really talking about is, you know, the state of the art of the thinking around workflow, and also technology for HCM versus the realities of just getting things under control.

Jennifer Dole 07:43
Yeah, so it’s, it’s sort of looking at kind of getting the, the workflows Right. And, and, and understanding what works for your organization.

Brent Skinner 07:56
So many organizations, you’re absolutely right, so many organizations, they HR, really, let’s think about it, but I mean, let’s be let’s be honest, when you’re a startup, a new company, HR isn’t the first thing that HR is something that you realize you have to do. After you’ve hired some people, it’s something it’s just it’s, it’s, it’s a, this probably isn’t the right word, and it’s in it’s not meant to be, you know, like, an insult or anything like that, but it’s an afterthought, you know, it’s, it’s often an afterthought, and when a company’s very small, just beginning. And I’ve heard, we’ve heard the terms, you know, accidental HR people, often some of the, you know, some of the founders or the very first employees in the organization end up just, they spread the load in terms of this, this growing administrative tedium that just has to be done. And at some point, somebody cries uncle or, or raises a stink, or maybe it’s not that bad, maybe it’s more amicable, but some point somebody says, Look, we need an HR person. And then they hire somebody, and maybe it may be set that point, or maybe it’s later on.

Jennifer Dole 09:08
Yeah, no, you know, as these small organizations are growing fast, they need that support in recruiting, that’s probably where they begin, right? Because you want to take that heavy lift off of your people, leaders. So because we could all be spending all our time on recruiting and small businesses to grow the team,

Brent Skinner 09:29
you know, probably than in payroll, right. Payroll is like the absolute that is like, you know, like to say, if there’s anything that’s absolutely essential to employing people it is paying. I mean, that’s, you know, and then depending on what kind of company you are, however small you are, you might need a time and attendance solution just to keep that straight. You know, at some point the Excel spreadsheet isn’t working anymore. And you’re absolutely right about recruiting, right, because if you if you start growing, you reset inflection When you knew we were going to work the term inflection point in this conversation today. Irisa inflection point where, where, where you start to grow. And there’s no way you can’t as a as a, as a founder of an organization at some point, you just, you have to delegate that to somebody else. And, and this is where it’s it gets interesting because I’ve seen use cases I’m sure you have to where sometimes when they bring in the dedicated HR person, when I say when we say HR, right? We mean, the whole kit and caboodle. Talent management, talent acquisition, every

Jennifer Dole 10:38
element. Yeah, exactly. They bring that

Brent Skinner 10:41
person, yeah, they bring that person in. And it’s, and maybe they don’t give them technology, they just want that person to do all the admin, and maybe they give them a nice title. But sometimes they do understand that they need to have the technology to or maybe the new person coming in, there’s all sorts of dynamics, maybe the new person coming in, says, Hey, we need some technology for this. But this is just to get back to the main point, though, this is about systematizing, right, you’re at a totally different stage of your, of the, the organizational lifecycle visa vie HCM, then then in a mature, you know, many years old, sort of enterprise organization,

Jennifer Dole 11:24
yeah, and very different challenges that you’re handling. And the way that you’re going to make the business case to improve is going to be different in a small organization, or medium sized organization, versus an enterprise organization.

Brent Skinner 11:41
And it means different things to leadership at those different stages to right. I mean, you think about this as systematizing stage of things, when you’re small, you’re your lean HR team. Love that term. It’s a newer company, smaller company, maybe it’s a company has been small for a very long time. We’ve seen that too. But you have this situation where this is very much a cost center sort of thing. This is about getting the administrative load under control, lowering labor expenditure related to this, this, this, you know, must complete, but it’s not it’s in no way strategic work, anything like that. And so you’re, you’re in that kind of a situation as as an organization, as an HR department, your your leadership recognized that they needed to solve for this. So it’s not like you’re, you know, was, was somewhere and you’re not trying to you’re not invisible. That’s what what helps. Right visible to them. And they see you as mission critical, but they don’t see you as search as strategic.

Jennifer Dole 12:55
Okay, no, but think about this. Small companies are competing with large companies. Talent.

Brent Skinner 13:02
Yeah. Yeah,

Jennifer Dole 13:05
what has to be strategic?

Brent Skinner 13:07
That’s a really great point. And so how do you? So what, what are some of the ways to? Well, think about this? So you have leadership at the organization. And they may not record they may not realize that that is, in fact, strategic? Because it’s it was such an administrative nuisance. Right. So what did some of the ways that maybe we’ll have to think about this one a little bit more? I don’t know, but what are some of the ways that that a small business’s HR department might be able to convince their leadership that or persuade their leadership that, you know, hey, we need to be strategic with say, our, let’s start with talent acquisition, I can see how it can be everything but because we’re competing for talent with these big players that are being strategic with their talent acquisition, maybe that answers the question, I don’t know.

Jennifer Dole 14:05
Well, I’m going to borrow a phrase from a mentor of mine. Okay. There are abstract and concrete ways that need to be thought of when, as a small organization trying to do any like that.

Brent Skinner 14:28
Thank you, young grasshopper. Just I will be honest, though, that, you know, this is this is a little bit of inside baseball here at 360 insights. We have a concept of concrete and abstract HCM that that sort of occurred to me it was this idea almost fell out of the sky. I feel like almost that it almost didn’t come from me. I just want to be clear about that. Oh, yeah, each CM has sort of a concrete side and an abstract side we have all this administrative stuff. It’s easily quantum readily quantifiable, often from a labor expenditure type of They have perspective, right, and it’s very, very easily translates to the accounting, spreadsheet, yada, yada, yada. And then we have all this is what the CFO really pays attention to, and maybe others in leadership too, because it makes so much sense to them with their MBAs and this sort of thing, right. But then you have the whole abstract side of HCM, which is, that’s about driving and building a really strong, healthy, robust employer culture, paying attention, realizing the employees experience actually is important. It’s important, even though you may not be able to actually quantify it right away in the spreadsheet, you these all of these things have an impact on the numbers for the company, but there’s no way to actually predict what the actual numbers going to be. And so you can put into a spreadsheet, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And, yeah,

Jennifer Dole 15:51
yeah. And I was just gonna say that in my short period of time here learning, I’ve taken that to a little bit deeper and talked about efficiencies and empathy. And again, back to this point of where do you begin as a small organization trying to tackle this and compete for talent, you’ve got to have efficiencies, right. And those efficiencies are going to be what appeals to your executives. But you also need to have empathy, because that’s what’s going to appeal to the top talent you’re trying to recruit into your organization. So there’s this fine balance that that needs to be worked into the business case of how you’re going to manage this challenge.

Brent Skinner 16:40
And you’re absolutely right about that A B, I love the concept of efficiency and empathy. Because it it in in, you really made me think when you came up with it, because it occurred to me, Well, wait a minute, you can’t be empathetic unless you have efficiencies in place. Because if you’re inefficient, in your HR processes, or your eight, let’s call your HCM processes, fine distinction. But anyway, if you’re inefficient in those, you’re not going to have any time to be empathetic as an HR department to argue for empathy, in favor of empathy to leadership, or certainly not as an organization. Right? In what’s interesting about it, also, if you think about it, is you think about sort of the evolution of it’s different in every organization, every organization, excuse me, is in a different point in this evolution. But at some point, it’s you’re beating a dead horse, if you’re still focusing on efficiencies. Give it okay. Yeah. Right. You, you’re at some point, you’re efficient enough, where if you’re not pivoting, to focus on empathy, to set your sights on those aspirational abstract HCM things and player culture, employee experience, then, then you’re, you’re not doing it right. You’re not

Jennifer Dole 18:06
talent that your business needs.

Brent Skinner 18:08
Exactly, exactly. And it this, this does dovetail nicely into the terms, you know, what’s going on with these terms in HCM today, because when you’re really focused on efficiencies, and, and I would kind of I would role system and systematize things. It’s not even try systematizing system and digitization. We’re not I’m gonna roll that into the efficiencies side of things. Because they really kind of go hand in hand. Right? You’re at that point of thinking where you’re just trying to get things under I love to say this, you’re trying to get things under control, right? Because there’s a certain pandemonium that can that can absolutely take over an HR and you have to get it under control. But once you have that in place, once you’ve systematized now it’s time once it kind of gotten the foundation and it’s like a foundation right now. Now you have the foundation. Okay, how can I think, you know, my house doesn’t have to have just four sides. Right? My house doesn’t have it just isn’t just one big room that’s three stories height or whatever, right? I have all sorts of different I have a great room or a living room. I have a I have a you know, a Jacuzzi here when I’m not describing my house necessarily. But you know, I love my house to be but you know, you’re, you’re now you’re building for your thinking, you know, you’re thinking sort of flick flex, fluidly in terms of what’s going on with talent management. And this gets the blending piece of it. We’ve, we’ve seen it we’re not going to name names, but we’ve seen We’ve seen people in our space start to talk about talent management, even name it something else. So or they call it the employee experience. We’ve seen that as a term. And we’re going to do another one of these in the near future where we know what’s a better term for employee experience, because it’s definitely a step up, but maybe not a better term. But what’s the next thing could be called? But we’ve also also seen it as future of work. Right, which it’s a good one. But does society workforce

Jennifer Dole 20:23
intelligence? Yeah.

Brent Skinner 20:27
Because you have all this AI that sort of infusing and we have a greater ever greater sophistication when it comes to analytics, too. Right.

Jennifer Dole 20:37
All of that feels very efficient.

Brent Skinner 20:40
Yes, it does it, doesn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. We wouldn’t be able to talk about the future of work if we were, if we were inefficient. in HR. Right. Yeah, you know, what’s interesting, too, is getting back to something we were talking about a moment ago, around leadership and how they view the HR function. I don’t think there’s any, I don’t think there’s really any company out there that doesn’t see HR as important, right. You know, it’s a mission critical, we this stuff has to get done. It’s not something we can just dispense with.

Jennifer Dole 21:18
Right. Even particularly after the last couple of years, I think HR was the hero of in the workplace around the pandemic.

Brent Skinner 21:28
absolutely safe. Right. That’s what’s interesting about disruption, we talk about disruption and, and how it can really kind of leave a lasting impact on how people view things. And because it because it’s so jolting, and it was interesting to see so many Oregon, most organizations, you know, thinking about the employee experience and how important it is to productivity. I think before the pandemic people might have, you might have had a lot of organizational leaders saying, Well, I mean, yeah, yeah. Okay, that’s great. But, you know, that, okay, thanks. Thanks for saying that, you know, it’s, it’s kind of like a sort of a, maybe not seen as that important, but all of a sudden, when we have the extreme, where everybody suddenly has to go work. I mean, we’re talking about certain segments of the marketplace that were people were, where they were still out there in the wild, you know, line, line, line people, you know, people in the power company, all that kind of stuff, but, but at least for, you know, in the professional managerial space, right, we had that massive and mass move to work from home, right? And all of a sudden, oh, man, the employee experience is tantamount to her work, or we’re going to go way down and productivity, oh, hey, maybe the employee experience actually is important when it comes to productivity. What I love about that is, right, productivity is something that Uber gonna raise productivity that that actually translates to an accounting spreadsheet.

Jennifer Dole 23:05
Back to efficiencies?

Brent Skinner 23:07
Yes, exactly, exactly.

Jennifer Dole 23:11
But what I think about it, is the technology, bringing in the efficiencies, allows the people to be more human. So once upon a time, we thought that the computers were going to eliminate all these jobs and all these people. But really, what it did was just ask us to be a little bit more creative, and focus more on the people side of things.

Brent Skinner 23:38
Yeah, it gave us it gave us the whitespace to do that. Yep. Yeah, that’s, it’s so funny how so many things have sort of that unintended effect. When you think about them, when you think about, you know, organizational leadership and, and how to make HR seem how to make empathy and HR seem like a strategic imperative. What, what comes to mind for you?

Jennifer Dole 24:12
What comes to mind for me is, is really building it into the talent strategy. And having it be a CEO conversation.

Brent Skinner 24:23
You’re absolutely right about that. That’s, I’m so glad you mentioned that. That’s such a great insight, because the CEO, the CEO is sort of like them, you think about the C suite, right. And you have your various voices in the C suite in the in the CEO needs to what’s the word synthesize all of that and convert it into a vision that makes sense and, and in reflects the different perspectives of the various personas in the C suite and in the, in the domains of the enterprise that are tributary Is to those different C suite. Personas. And in what’s interesting here is that this, I remember a long time ago, in my career, this is many years ago, I’ll say 10 years ago. I know, I know. There’s an organization called that chief executive. And they, they, they publish a magazine Chief Executive Magazine. And they used to have, I don’t know if they still have it, or they may, but they, at the time, they had a twice yearly conference called CEO to CEO. And at the time, it was in New York City. And they would, they would survey, the CEOs, every time they, they had the event, this was mid-sized company CEOs, and they’d have some marquee enterprise size, you know, household name brands, CEOs that would deliver talks, they would survey that CEOs in attendance, and retaining top talent was, I think, one year, it was the number one concern, it was never, it was never below number three, from what I entered from, if I recall correctly, I do know when I was working with these folks that it was very high on the list. So the CEO is sort of preternaturally sort of disposed to caring about the employee experience. You know, that’s, I think that’s, that’s an easy inference.

Jennifer Dole 26:33
Yeah. And, and so that’s, it’s having that conversation with the CEO with the talent strategy that I see so many vendors doing today, right, they want to get help HR leaders get the right conversation in front of the CEO.

Brent Skinner 26:54
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you and I have sort of seen how the sausage is made having been on the vendor side. Right. And, and, for me, personally, also add another vendor as well, that I won’t name. But in any event, you know, there’s an across the board, when we’re talking with vendors and users, especially with our user conversations, you know, there’s, there’s, I’m not so sure vendors are reaching, like having direct conversations with with the C suite, necessarily as much as they should, in when they’re making the case.

Jennifer Dole 27:34
Well, so I don’t know that they, they need to help the HR leader make have the conversation make the case, right. That’s where the real magic is in educating, informing, and providing the case for HR to go to the CEO. It’s their conversation.

Brent Skinner 28:00
Right. Ultimately, you’re empowering that that that line of business leader to be more to present themselves as more strategic to the organization’s leader leadership. Yeah, that’s a great point. That’s a great point. Going back to the, you know, the terms, talent management, you know, and all this because it’s, you know, you and I, we joke sort of, on the back channel offline about how, how difficult sometimes it is to have a very sort of focus, and stay focused on one topic when talking about ACN. Because it all kind of blends in. Yeah, yeah. But when thinking about the terms, right. It’s, there is, here’s my, my prediction is at some point I think it’s going to be twofold is kind of two things are going to happen. I think large enterprise organizations and mature midsize organizations. At some point, they’re not even going to use the term talent management anymore. I think so is going to be the employee experience is going to be we’ve talked about this, whether it’s learning or succession planning, or, or performance management, there’s so much blending between those things, it is really difficult to talk about it in silos, it almost doesn’t make sense anymore. But when but when we’re talking about Lean HR teams, at small businesses that are still solving for efficiencies and systematizing. Maybe it will remain, you know, maybe the term talent management is sort of the auspices, like sort of like the category under which there are many silos, maybe that term will go away still, but you’ll still be talking about is like as discrete activities, performance management, learning. Those are probably the two that may happen first and then maybe have compensation management and succession planning after that. What are your thoughts? I mean, this is it just a hypothesis of mine I, who knows 510 years from now someone might come back and say, Hey, Brent, you were wrong.

Jennifer Dole 30:26
I think there’s some combination of people culture and strategy. Hmm. And business strategy.

Brent Skinner 30:38
People culture, strategy and business strategy. Well,

Jennifer Dole 30:41
yeah, business strategy is one. Right, I just said strategy. I think that is, is where HR can contribute the most to an organization, making sure that they’ve got a strategy ready workforce.

Brent Skinner 31:03
Now, what’s interesting about that is it really is the natural seat for HR. Right? I mean, ultimately, as an HR department should strive to be the go to resource or the go to organizational Sherpa, if you will, when there’s a question about how to be more effective with our people. That’s when that’s when Yeah, you’re absolutely right. That’s when they become really organizationally strategic. I forget who it was I was talking with there might have been somebody there on our global Executive Advisory Council had the conversation many months ago. But it’s this idea that and I forget where he saw it. But he shared an idea with me, there was a report where they talking about the chief HR officer and the chief, HR operational officer, they were talking about, like, split, there was some there was this kind of an old from several years ago, where they’re talking about that. And it’s really interesting, because it’s it to me that I’d have to look into it more, but it might be the Genesis to the whole, you know, Chief People Officer phenom scene, right. And it and because the chief people officer and the chief HR officer, if they both exist in an organization, their roles are are kind of different.

Jennifer Dole 32:40
That is something that I would need to think about more or learn more about how they’re different.

Brent Skinner 32:45
Well, me too. Me too. Maybe that’s maybe that’s one of our next internal HR Tech Chat series conversations. Maybe? Maybe.

Jennifer Dole 32:59
This has been great. I love these conversations.

Brent Skinner 33:02
Oh, me too. Me too. I knew that we would end up trying to boil the ocean today. But that’s okay. If we keep at it, maybe we will indeed boil the ocean at some point, which would be great.

Jennifer Dole 33:16
Find the right term that encompasses all that HR leaders and teams need to do?

Brent Skinner 33:24
Yeah, that’s that’s something that the space really should and they are but we should redouble our efforts. So I say we I mean the royal we all of us in HCM, we really should be thinking about that very, very strongly. And that really was kind of the you know, the impetus for this conversation today. We hope to have maybe made a dent in that for everyone.

Jennifer Dole 33:47
Yeah, or get more people thinking about it. Yeah, yeah. And I’d love to hear what people are thinking about it. Well, that’s

Brent Skinner 33:55
that’s a good clarion call folks. If you’re listening in and and you want to kind of get in touch with us and speak with us about your, your own experience. In HCM, we love to hear your stories. So let’s go the website it’s very easy to find from the drop down menu and, and we’ll be in touch. All right.

Jennifer Dole 34:15
Thank you.

Brent Skinner 34:16
Thank you, Jen. Tell good again soon.

Share your comments: