3Sixty Insights #HRTechChat​ with Jeff Cates of Achievers

Welcome to 3Sixty Insights’ latest #HRTechChat. Jeff Cates, CEO and president of Achievers, joined us last week for an illuminating conversation around the rationale behind recognizing employees and how to extract the most value from the activity. Following are some ideas we discussed:

  • For any organization that wants to improve its workplace culture, employee recognition is a really good, intuitive place to start
  • Organizational leadership’s attitude toward the workplace culture is critical to success
  • The data show that employee recognition goes far, far beyond the idea of paying staff competitively (or more); day-to-day recognition has a far greater impact on changing behavior
  • It is exceptionally difficult for employers to institutionalize day-to-day employee recognition in the absence of a platform for doing so—let alone next to impossible to measure results
  • This is why systematizing employee recognition is so important: it produces a wealth of data that organizations can use to measure impacts
  • Analytics from these data, furthermore, help leaders maximize goodwill with their staff
  • With the help of these prosthetics, even leaders with strong propensities to recognize staff can improve by tailoring their intent to the ways their people comprehend or prefer recognition
  • A dedicated platform also introduces efficiency to workflows around employee recognition, giving the activity concrete benefits for organizations that elect to embrace the activity


Brent Skinner 00:04
Welcome, everyone to the 3Sixty Insights conversation with me today is Jeff Cates, Chief Executive Officer of Achievers. Several weeks ago, Jeff and I were introduced and had a very interesting conversation around the philosophy and principles behind employee recognition, which achievers software drives, what’s the compelling rationale to recognize employees with intentionality invest and invest in the software to do so? These are some of the questions that we explored last time, and we decided to schedule videocast to revisit these and other ideas. Jeff, welcome. Why don’t you give us a little more context? Just a little bit as to what achievers does, and we’ll take it from there Sound good?

Jeff Cates 00:48
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. Well, Achievers is predominantly in the recognition, reward and voice of employee categories. But we anchor kind of in our macro, our goal is to change the way the world works. And what we mean by that is, we’re trying to make a meaningful difference in the greater than 70% of employees that are not fully engaged. And there’s lots of ways to do that, right? There’s lots of things that drive engagement. But the core things we anchor around is creating a sense of belonging in the organization, belongingness, connectedness, and how do we build better people, leaders. So everything we do anchors around those things, belongingness, connectedness, better people, leaders. So recognition happens to be one of the most impactful things that managers can do, or employees can do for that matter, to create a sense of belongingness and connectedness. Where we’re where we’re focused is those core things of driving behavior through things like recognition, through voice of employee that provides insights, and then drives actions that leaders will take that will drive the employee experience, and use technology to nudge that behavior to oil, the gears, if you will, is what we’re all about. Essentially, we’re at the intersection of workforce science, behavioral science, and technology, with kind of data in the in the center.

Brent Skinner 02:28
That’s really interesting. And that’s a lot. So a few things that come to mind. First of all, employee recognition sounds to me, as if employee recognition is as good a place to start as any, and perhaps, perhaps the best place to start, if an organization has that sort of that moment of realization, where you know, what, we should pay more attention to our employer culture, we want to improve this employer culture, we have this. So you have that, that that impetus of wanting to get better at that as an organization, which is always a positive thing. Would you say that employee recognition is probably the best place to start? Um, I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth.

Jeff Cates 03:11
But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, in terms of big swings of the industry over the decades, in a voice of employee kind of really started to get in vogue in the 80s, certainly in the 90s. By the 2000s, it became like, you know, if you if you’re not tracking voice of employee, to some extent, you’re, you’re not aligned with good business management practices, because at that time, there was lots of data coming out saying higher engagement equals higher profitability, revenue, customer sad, etc. And that’s continued to build momentum. And, and the trend has become like, an annual or, or every two years survey does not actually drive any change. you’re measuring something way after the fact. Now, what’s happening is, so now you’re getting much more frequent, like polling, and right, the rise of the quarterly pulse is is the natural evolution. And that’s great. That’s a measuring stuff at the end. But if you look below, VoIP below voice of employee, what really what really drives engagement, Iraqi mission, like I’m, I’m really, you know, I am rewarded for the things I do, I’m recognized for, for my efforts, both, first of all, most importantly from the manager. And then from the superior above the manager or the CEO, CEO, depending on your organizational structure, and then peers, all three matter but they’re in that order, the data will show that they’re in that order. And so with the next evolution, I think is like peeling the onion back below the voice of the employee and really anchoring around like, what energy can we put in that truly is going to move the needle There’s some basics recognition matters. One on one meetings matter, like there’s a core set, man, if you can just like get really good at doing that. You can drive much better productivity, much better performance, much better culture as a result.

Brent Skinner 05:17
What kind of things does achievers technology do to facilitate that interaction in recognition?

Jeff Cates 05:28
Yeah, so what’s core? You know, so before, not just talk, talk a little how the, the categories evolved? Sure. So the category evolved predominantly around rewarding things like years of service, right, you know, back in the 70s 80s, when it was all about, you know, long lifetime, retaining employees for long periods of time. And that kind of started to change in the in the 90s. And the 2000. It was like, what we recognize that attrition is a thing and people are moving, especially as things as technology becomes more prevalent. And so it’s about ensuring that you are rewarding real time behavior, and not putting all your emphasis on, you know, have you been here 10 years and get a watch? Oh, right. Right.

Brent Skinner 06:22
milestone, sorry to interrupt but it’s arbitrary milestones, because those are arbitrary, even though they seem set in stone, they’re sort of arbitrary, as opposed to really having that happen in real time in the moment when it matters most.

Jeff Cates 06:37
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, I mean, I’m not sure they’re necessarily arbitrary, but they’re just it, those are good things to do. It’s not, it is not a bad thing to recognize a one year, a five year or 10 year or whatever. But it’s not behavior changing, or it’s not behavior changing, it’s a nice thing to do, it’s a good thing to do people like it, but it’s not behavior changing, behavior changing. You know, maybe you would say the reward in the form of a bonus at the end of the year is his behavior. Well, okay. Yes, it is, to some extent, it’s a guiding light, people think about it, but it’s not day to day behavior, changing day to day behavior changing is when you have like, a daily or a weekly, like positive reinforcement for how you’re performing a job, or what you’re driving. And that’s been the evolution of the category went from rewards that were largely about pins, pins and trophies, and then it became more around like rewarding in a more personalized, frequent way. And then it’s kind of shifted to like, what really matters is the recognition, which may or may not have some sort of monetary component. And so organizations are saying, look, we’re spending all this money, and often cases, on these things that actually don’t drive real behavior, and take money away from these things that don’t really drive right behavior, and reallocate them to real behavior changing, you know, recognition. That’s, that’s amazing to see that evolution.

Brent Skinner 08:05
You know, what’s interesting is what you just said, made me think of something, because there’s all sorts of there’s been chatter and data, flying around studies for a long time around, you know, what really motivates employees. And, and obviously, you have to pay them. But there’s, there’s, there’s there are limitations to, you know, paying them more, you know, at some, at some point, it’s not necessarily that motivating factor, just like you mentioned, right. Now, use you talking about this idea of the behavior changing day to day actions, which are, which are outside of that the different types of activities, right, it occurred to me that, you know, one can’t really exist without the other. So, so for instance, if you had, let’s say that you Well, I guess, let me let me ask you that just as a maybe even a caricature of an example, right, just to just for just for the sake of this conversation, let’s say that you have an organization that really can’t pay its employees that much, maybe it’s a nonprofit, in most of its employees are, you know, they they’re, they’re on board with the mission, maybe they’re there because they really believe in the mission. So, maybe we have some motivation there already. To what extent can day to day behavioral changing actions be a counterweight to possibly, you know, fairly low pay

Jeff Cates 09:32
very much. So, you, you will join a company and you will join with a salary and you either join or you don’t join, right. So, so, if you chose that salary and joined the company, you probably joined the company for a reason. It could be mission, it could be team, it could be role like experience you want but you join that. Now over time, you might get some sort of some sort of concern around salary Maybe you found out what somebody else was getting paid maybe a headhunter called you. So for sure, at some point, you might get some sort of inequity there that starts to preoccupy your thoughts. But most people don’t wake up in the morning thinking like, I’m really upset because I don’t get paid enough. What they get worried about is like, my manager isn’t seeing what I’m doing, or I just worked my butt off for this, and nobody saw it or recognized it. I mean, that’s, that’s where you really kind of you get axed within an organization. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, of course, you’ve got to attract people into your organization with the right pay, and you need to keep that somewhat competitive. But in reality, most of the real energy, positive energy and negative energy is more around the day to day interactions, and the feedback and the recognition you’re getting. So yes, your posts, you will find that organizations that have high recognition have much higher engagement, and have much lower attrition rate. We’ve proven that organizations like Kellogg’s have looked at managers that recognize more, and their attrition rate, employee attrition rate versus others, that it’s significantly lower. And so that tells you that that that that high active usage of a manager recognizing people is creating a better sense of, well, it’s it’s largely belongingness, and connectedness in the organization or job satisfaction. That means that they’re not spending time thinking like, Well, I’m not getting paid enough for this. So for sure, you can get a better bang for your compensation BOC. If you’re putting energy towards the things that truly drive behavior, changing an emotionally charged positive emotionally charged environments, versus just relying on I need to increase the salary at the end of the year. It’s that’s such a blunt exercise. And it’s really not, it’s not really where the paper people’s behavior is really anchored on. until it gets until it gets really knocked off, then it might. But in most cases, that’s not the case.

Brent Skinner 12:04
This I mean, this is this is really illuminating, and it really hits the nail on the head around some, you know, there is some go to default thinking around what’s going to motivate employees versus what, what really what the science says does, and it’s so important to get to clarify that for the market. You know, it’s interesting, we’re getting into this idea of what, how do you? How do you justify the value? How do you justify the value in investing in employee recognition? software specifically, so this might be a little bit of a bigger conversation, but let’s tackle this. So one, there is employee recognition happening most of the time in most organizations, but it’s sort of organic, and some organizations, it’s happening more than others? You know, there’s probably some percentage of employers were barely happening at all right. But there’s sort of these of these unofficial, just organically surfacing channels of, of employee recognition. We’re actually talking about two things. But so one, how do you how do you go to an organization tell them, Hey, this is already happening at your organization, it would be worth your while it would be, you know, justifiable from a financial standpoint, right. To I think what we discussed earlier was systematizing, the employee recognition and how do you go into that conversation? How do you how do you sort of make the case for bringing order to the employee recognition?

Jeff Cates 13:48
Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, it’s, you ask an HR leader, and most business leaders, most business leaders, they’ll say, like, we know what great looks like in this it. And it doesn’t have to be digitized, it can be gift, you know, it can be like, I signed a card and the you know, at the birthday, you know, we all sign the card at the town hall, we recognize people for their, you know, there, there are lots of ways to show recognition. But they take energy. They’re particularly hard to do many of those other things non digitized when you’re in a remote work environment. Right? I no longer it’s not easy for me to pass it around my birthday card around or. And so, and it’s tough to measure those things, right. It’s tough to see that you’re driving consistency and best practices. And so essentially, what we’re saying is like, you know, what great looks like because you see it from the people, leaders and you can tell because you can look at their employee engagement scores, and you know, that they’re the better people leaders. And it’s not it’s not hard to see how they show up and why right. What a recognition system does a platform does. It is enable it enables you to actually be able to track like measure are the are the managers recognizing or the exacts recognizing, it enables you to see the quality? Like, hey, when you recognize that way, that’s not very meaningful. It allows you to look at diversity, are we recognizing some pockets of employees versus others. And it enables you to coach and it removes a lot of the friction that might get in the way of actually recognizing, right? If it’s hard to send the birthday card around, or the anniversary card or the like, Hey, we just won this deal, let’s, you know, bring everybody together, then it’s less likely to happen. A platform brings all those things together, measurable, you can actually coach on it. And you’re removing the friction. So that’s, that’s the core of what you’re seeing is a digitized platform for recognition enables you to bring these together and be more purposeful and impactful. Right? What normally happens is it usually comes from either one of two things. It will come from the voice of employee survey, and somebody says, Wow, recognitions off, hey, somebody in HR, can you go figure that out? And they’re like, oh, recognitions, that we should get a recognition platform. Cool, that’s great. No, no problem, we’ll take that. The other will often come from reward. They’ll say, like, Look, we got people buying gift cards from CVS, and you know, they’re buying it on their credit card. And this is like a, you know, fraud waiting to happen. And we’re spending money, all of these places, we really don’t think we’re getting our money for reward. And that also is a benefit of a consolidated reward platform. And then they and then they start looking at like recognition as part of reward platform. Those are your two probably like on ramps, if you will, in the category. The third is any HR leader that has had a recognition program, or often a CEO that’s had a recognition program moves to another company away, Oh, my gosh, how could we operate without it? Those are the three entries. So that’s that that’s what we kind of anchor around is like, Look, if you’re looking to consolidate reward platforms to get more bang for your buck, we try to explain that and quantify it. If you’re looking to consolidate around recognition, like actually driving a culture of recognition, how do you create a culture of recognition? And of course, we’ll look for executives that already have seen the power of a platform. Yes, right. Now, let’s bring that to your new company. Because you know how powerful it is in terms of driving culture?

Brent Skinner 17:30
That’s smart. Because there’s so much so many, so many different things in what you just described and explained. So. So one is this idea that and it feeds into the building leaders that the piece of your of your solution was identifying people who have those people leader skills, right, and, and I think that’s what you’re getting. So much of the culture comes? Well, it really the culture originates in the leaders of the organization. And it’s occurred to me thinking about this over time, that it really does, the leader is really sort of that that origin of the culture, so much, so much emanates from the leader, in terms of what the organizational culture is, it could be, you know, whatever that person is, it kind of manifests in the organization. And there are other factors at play, but it’s so much of it hinges on the leaders, right? So it’s very interesting that, that it makes so much sense, it’s smart, that leaders that already get it would want this. Another thing that’s really interesting about what you said, though, is you know, thinking about employee recognition, before you and I spoke, it wouldn’t necessarily have occurred to me that there’s an efficiency play there. But there is, you know, there, and that’s super smart. So if you have if you have an organization that so there’s a building block, you have that organization that first it understands that employee recognition is important, probably coming from that leader that is that’s on board with the idea. Now that leader sees the and this gets in the concrete versus abstract HCM, which we’ve been talking a lot about. We’re talking a lot about a 360 insights. There’s, there’s actually a concrete aspect to employee recognition around efficiency, once the abstraction of the notion that hey, employee recognition we need to have this is there that it’s agreed upon? Right. So that that’s really interesting to me. Just some, some, some observations. Yeah, really what you’re seeing in in the HR space.

Jeff Cates 19:44
I mean, arguably, HR is the last Dominion to Well, maybe legal as well, that are going through this digitalization process. Right like marketing went through it a long time ago. where, you know, it’s actually, you know, it’s not there. sure there’s an element of art, there’s an element of art. But it’s largely science now, right? We make smart decisions around, where we’re investing, we track, we optimize, we test and learn it’s digitized. HR has been kind of this, you know, softer discipline of art. But now what’s happening is we’re digitizing those processes. So we can actually really start to break things down leading lagging indicators, like of attrition is the output, well, then, like what caused attrition, and we’re working our way back to look at like, what truly happened, what behaviors truly drive the outcomes that we’re looking for. And so that, you know, recognition is just happens to be a beautiful place to do this. Because, you know, with platform, you literally can track measure, Coach, you know, and you can start to use that where we’re going with our platform is sure, surface insights to the manager real time, surface insights to the HR, the HR VP, business partner to say, look, you might want to go coach on this for sure. But what we really want to do is start to like, then nudge the leader. And so you might have a blind spot here, or you should consider the following, right, you might want to do this, or we can say like, using, using language processing, we can say like, hey, when you say words, that way, it won’t be as affected, you might want to consider that. And so our goal is to use behavioral science and technology to actually be like, nudging the behaviors real time, we’re gonna put data in front of the managers and say, Look, you’d be more effective. And here’s the key, here’s how you know that. Now, let’s explain that that’s compelling reason, okay, but I want that output. Great. Now, let’s teach you why. And then let’s actually give you practical experience, where possible to say you’d be better to word it this way. And if we can do that, we no longer have to have hrbps have to become the coaches or even the managers, or the managers of managers becoming coaching, the technology can be actually guiding the behavior and nudging real time, you know, without having to send people off to classes, you know, to learn, right, we can actually guide the right behavior that that will be what great will look like, not only in this category, but when you cascade it beyond into other areas around people leadership, or tech, HR, called HR tech can play a role. We’ve got to be, we’ve got to be coaching real time nudging real time. That’s how you make a movement.

Brent Skinner 22:38
Yeah, and you know, what, that’s interesting, and also gets to the, really, to the crux of why the data is so important. Right? You know, because you have an organization that has, let’s say, you have, you know, have all the raw ingredients in place for, for a positive employer culture, you have a leader that’s that it’s a great leader understands that this is important, cares about his or her people, right, and all that, but nobody’s perfect. Everybody can get better at being a leader. And using that data, to inform the analytics that provide sort of almost a leadership prosthetic for the leader to be even better at that. And so that’s really interesting is, is you wouldn’t think of what look at it another way, right? Everybody thinks of employee recognition as being. So it’s, it’s unidirectional, maybe, right? It comes from leadership, and it flows to the employees. And, and that’s all positive, right? But this actually a feedback loop. It’s actually feeding information back to leadership as well. And the data makes it possible.

Jeff Cates 23:55
Yeah, you have a couple of thoughts is one if you really want to create a culture of gratitude and recognition. Another way to say that is I want to create a culture of positive reinforcement, guiding towards values and towards behaviors and outcomes you want. You can say it either way. I want to call it cultural gratitude and recognition or I want to positive reinforce the values and the productivity. I want either of them the same thing once below the other. You then you don’t want you don’t want, you know it’s passed down. That’s reward mechanism mindset. What Yes, for sure people managers need to be recognized in real time. Again, the data shows that that’s super, super impactful. Then you want the people above recognizing that’s for career progression and a variety of other things. So that’s important too. But it is important to have peer to peer. It is you stayed last night and you helped me it is the like I recognize that. You didn’t have to help me on board that way, but you did. That is peer to peer coaching peer to peer positive reinforcement feedback. back. So you really want a culture that has that positive reinforcement, as much as you can anchored around the value system, right? how you operate as much as you can. Because that’s, that’s what that’s what builds a culture of productivity or culture or performance. Yeah. The other thought is, you know, much like marketing, you know, as we, as we look at how do we drive behaviors, how do we drive thinking? The more we can personalize that content to you think Facebook, think LinkedIn, right? The more we know, like, what you’re interested in, what you’re interested in right now. And the way we can deliver that to you in a way that would be meaningful to you, the more likely we are to get you to take action, right. So marketing is like eating in this space. Well, that is the next evolution, I think of nudging. And, and personalizing in this space, too. If I know that Brent’s behavioral style is the following, you know, Brent prefers recognition over reward his love languages, you know, recognition over reward, and he prefers public over private and he prefers team over individual, then then I can now like, if I knew that about you, and I thought about it, then I would write something that would be tailored to that right. And I would put the private setting on or offsetting I recognize a group if I knew that, but I don’t always think about that. And I may not actually have thought about that with you I’m I just think a you think the way I think so the more we can inject that actually personalized behavioral knowledge of this types of this types, this person’s behavioral styles, the following, we can translate that into actions, whether that’s recognition, or that’s how I have a one on one engagement with you, the more we actually make it much easier to create that sense of belongingness connectedness the between the people leader and the individual below or between the other leaders, and then below, right, so I’m really excited where this industry will go as we’re able to use things like behavioral models, to hyper personalize insights and nudges to drive belongingness it’s super exciting space.

Brent Skinner 27:28
It is exciting. By the way, you described me to a tee just but you know what, it’s interesting what you’re saying it goes back again, to those that prosthetic for the leader, you have a leader that has that positive impulse to want to engage in a positive way with that employee, but may have sort of a, a flawed understanding of how of how to approach that employee. Right. And so you have this data that helps to, to help to inform that, that activity, so that ahead of time, so that it can be as effective as possible. And this actually gets into the behavioral science and all that. But also this gets into you mentioned NLP earlier. Right. And in NLP being, you know, kind of artificial intelligence, I know that it’s it falls under that category of it, at least for now, not necessarily being true artificial intelligence, intelligence. But let’s Can we just hit on that just for a little bit? Because I’m curious, how do you see a AI bolstering employee recognition?

Jeff Cates 28:49
Yeah, so your big areas where I think will make a meaningful difference? Well, let me start where it is today. You see, let’s take let’s take NLP, you see natural language processing, solving for problems that people have usually it’s, there’s a massive amount of qualitative data and you’re trying to shrink it down, right? So it was used for stats purposes, right? Looking at NPS surveys and trying to, you know, bring out the core themes out of it. And now that’s being applied to employee engagement. If you have a large organization, you get a lot of qualitative feedback and your engagement score and you’re trying to bring that down and pull up the key insights. So that’s been the like, I’d say the largest area that we’ve really seen that use because it’s a real problem. And now like we’re will evolve to is using that using NLP more to be able to look at an input or output called the performance management report. Chinese engagements where it’s digitized and you can track it In the NLP can actually look at that and it can guide on it, it can say, hey, this wasn’t a good, you know, this wasn’t the right way to say something. After the fact maybe, you know, think about, think about what you now see in sales coaching, you know, you’ll turn on an app, it’s tracking, how much did how time, how much time did you talk versus the customer talk? What words did you use? How many times did you mentioned the following, right? What’s the same kind of thing for now looking post past tense at the experience between the manager and the employee, where it will then evolved to, is actually real time nudging? You know, it’s one thing to wait and after the fact say, hey, you should have done the performance management differently to real, like real time be able to nudge on like, hey, before you write that, you might want to write it this way. Whether it be you know, any sort of digit digitize connections. So I think that’s where it will go to is it’s, it’s moving from solving real problems aggregating, then it goes to a helping to actually track for coaching call track for coaching purposes. And then it evolved to like actually mentioned real time behavior. So you don’t even have to coach on it, because it’s coaching real time. Which is, which is really exciting. And then you’ll see more, yeah, I’m sure it’s not necessarily artificial intelligence, but there’s a lot more room around better predictive analytics, that will, will then kind of shape again, more nudging of, like, Hey, we think we’re going to have a problem in this area, let’s call attrition. Or maybe we have a customer stat problem. So we have a customer set problem, why do we have a customer set on your back, and you’ll be connecting different data points, like your recognition system, maybe your HRIS system, maybe, maybe your ci, be looking at that to see where there’s correlations. And using that to identify and eagers across those systems, if you look at what behaviors are actually going to nudge the right outcomes. So going back to recognition, for example, there’s data to show that companies that are stores that have higher recognition, have higher cset scores. So companies have taken their cx platform, and they’ve taken their recognition platform, and they’ve mapped that data together, and they say, look, you know, there is a correlation. I really know that. Now, how can you actually use the technology be nudging? Where do you have managers or employees, where you need to actively coach to improve that you improve that, and then you should, you know, hypothetically see the same kind of outcomes in terms of the customer experience, they’re going to have not solely a course that requires her the things but we know these things are tightly linked, so you can actually pinpoint let’s go pay attention there.

Brent Skinner 32:37
And you mentioned, I think I heard you say stores, so you’re talking to do Did I hear you correctly? You said stores? Yeah, I’m just giving an example, retail space.

Jeff Cates 32:47
Yeah, super, super retail group, for example, they did an analysis and they looked for their, you know, for their environment, they looked at recognition to store customer satisfaction at store level. Yeah. Others have done that, too. They’ve looked at restaurants, same thing, restaurants, restaurants that have high active usage of recognition, you know, lots and lots of recognition sent, have higher store performance and higher.

Brent Skinner 33:17
Yeah, and you know, what, it, it makes a lot of sense. But, but sometimes you have to have that that data in place to, to really convince the larger, you know, the larger population. And, you know, it’s interesting that actually fits in with, and I think we’re running close to, to the end of our time, but your that that fits in with the service profit chain, which I think is a concept that was espoused Harvard Business Review, several years back, this idea that the more engaged your floor staff is and the retail space and of course, you know, the restaurant space, being close cousin to them know that hospitality, the more engaged that your employee, that your workforce is happier, the more engaged are apt to return to your to your cup to your to your store for more business will be your customers, I totally Mangle the way I said that. But I think everybody is probably clear. Yeah, so there’s definitely a symbiosis there. And makes a lot of sense, you know, if you’re going to have disengaged or unhappy floor staff, then you know, that vibe is definitely going to is definitely going to be sensed by the clientele and you’re going to have some trouble there. You know, what’s interesting also is what you’re talking about is you talked about wrecking a culture of recognition and gratitude, or you can call it a culture that reinforces our mission and drives productivity, right. And those is funny that that you have folks that will think of those think of one or the other and in I think what we’re talking about today is that they’re actually they’re, they completely, you know, they, they feed each other, you know, it’s you can’t have one without the other. And, and it’s almost hokey to say so but I will say that that again goes back to concrete an abstract HCM you know, the, the concrete objectives of the or just concrete in abstract for business, right, the concrete objectives are to and reinforce the mission and drive productivity, right. But, but you can’t have that without, without appreciating respecting and in practicing a culture of appreciation, gratitude of appreciated recognition and gratitude, excuse me, yeah, I was really interesting stuff, Jeff,

Jeff Cates 35:52
to recognition in particular is so important, or how you actually drive behavior and actions is so important, then you want to have a scalable way to measure it, to manage it, and to positively reinforce it. And if you can do that, it’s arguably one of the most important things you can do to actually drive business success. It’s critical.

Yeah. But

Jeff Cates 36:25
say, it’s the more that we were able to connect these things together and actually get hard facts on this causes this, which causes this, the more that the category will develop, and will be considered like, you know, how could you operate an organization without it, it’s still in its infancy of being able to bring those data correlations together. So people can really see that and build the business case. And that that’s really what’s in front of us. As, as leaders in the industry, how do we help create that awareness for why it’s just so mission critical to build, build your culture builds your people management practice, around a system that allows you to scale that and do all those things.

Brent Skinner 37:13
It’s a worthy charter. Yeah. And I think you put it just really well. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a fantastic conversation. learned a lot. It’s very interesting to me. Thank you so much. And, and have a have a wonderful weekend.

Thanks for the opportunity, Brent.


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