#HRTechChat: Steve Goldberg, HR Industry Analyst, Advisor & Thought Leader

My guest for this episode of #HRTechChat was Steve Goldberg, well-known HR industry analyst, advisor and thought leader. Steve and I were having so many interesting conversations of late, that we decided we’d better lay one of these tracks down on vinyl, so to speak. Steve shared a few ideas around the theme of “opportunities where HR technology can make a difference today and over the next several years,” and here we are….

True to form, Steve got me to thinking about something in a way I’d never considered. It’s loosely related to a concept I encountered many years ago. The idea “is really the byproduct of mashing together the vendor perspective and the customer perspective,” Steve said. From vendors, there’s a standardization of functionality for this or that need and area of practice in human capital management. And, at the employers that use this software, there’s a fit for this standardization, but also a uniqueness that standardized solutions won’t address. And, Steve asks, “I’m now thinking, can machine learning help? How do you bridge that gap with machine learning?”

That is a fascinating possibility. Another area of interest in HCM today “is what I call line manager enablement,” Steve said. “It’s a phrase that I started using when I was at PeopleSoft. Even fast forward to today. It’s not getting anything close to the attention that I think it needs.”

His point is sage. Essential stakeholders when it comes to HCM technology, line managers need attention. And what’s intriguing is that the dam seems to be breaking, and vendors of technology for HCM are beginning to gear their solutions for the line manager — a welcome development.

“The HR department typically only comprises about one percent of the organization,” Steve said. “How can HR possibly scale and have a finger on the pulse of the needs, interests, goals, potential issues, and challenges of every employee in an organization, every worker? So line managers have to be viewed as critical in listening to employees’ needs, interests, and goals and in balancing these with the needs, interests, and goals of the enterprise.”

Our chat covered a country mile’s worth of ground. We discussed Steve’s three P’s for artificial intelligence. We threw a bone to Generation X and Baby Boomers by talking about the nuclear accident at Three Mile Island as a parable for the pitfalls in crisis communication at the intersection of internal and external brand (link included for the edification of Millennials and Generation Y). Even the topic of mergers and acquisitions came up, including the cruciality of managing cultural friction successfully during these events. This conversation was truly wide-ranging.

A friend of mine and member of our Global Executive Advisory Council, Steve is always a deep fount of knowledge and wisdom on all things HCM. Much of it comes from his decades in the business as a practitioner in HR, an HCM technology vendor executive, and an industry analyst and consultant. (He recently became a board advisor for Azilen Technologies, for example.) Anyone who likes to think deeply on technology, leadership and more in HCM will want to give this episode a view.

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Brent Skinner 00:00
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the #HRTechChat video podcast. And with me today I have very special guest, Steve Goldberg, who is a longtime HR industry analyst, advisor and thought leader. Welcome, Steve.

Steven Goldberg 00:17
Brent, thanks a lot great to be with you, as always, oh, yeah,

Brent Skinner 00:20
the feeling is mutual. sort of sitting here in rarefied air, I feel here, a very happy to have you on the podcast. And we have some really interesting, we’ve had all sorts of industry car industry, interesting conversations, the two of us, sort of offline over the past many months, especially but, but we we landed on something that that you shared with me was very important to you, and I think is a really especially interesting topic. And what we’re calling it here is five opportunities where HR technology can make a difference today and over over the next several years. Maybe before we hit on that just that’s to whet our, the appetite of our of our viewers, maybe you could just give us a little bit of background about yourself. It’s really fascinating. And you have a lot just a wealth of expertise to, to share.

Steven Goldberg 01:23
Yeah, thanks, Graham. And thanks for having me. So, I like to say, what makes me unique other than my personality is, and it’s not that I’ve been in HR, HCM and HR tech for about four decades now. But it’s, it’s really the diverse set of lenses that I’m able to bring, when I talk to customers and clients either on the vendor side or the buyer side. And really, the diverse set of lenses is rooted in the fact that I spent 15 years heading up HR systems for financial services, most specifically investment banks in the US and in Europe. And the CHR Rose and I recorded to relay at a young and tender age right out of grad school, and a master’s in HR. Not that I really plan anything from the back end. But the credential, I guess helped me in terms of getting relatively senior jobs at a young age, particularly in investment banks. In any event, the CHR Rose and I reported to felt very strongly that I needed to immerse myself in pretty much every HR. And so then I could probably have the foresight and be able to manage risks and opportunities as it relates to you know, then deploying technology to automate enable those practices, and work closely with my teams and kind of, we could all learn together. So they were really great experiences, I did this, it could be body painting, whatever. So Salomon Brothers, and in Europe at Swiss bank corporation. So 15 years of that then led me to take the role of taking the reigns of hitting up strategy PeopleSoft. When I crossed over to that to the vendor side, and then gone did something entrepreneurial after Dan co founded an applicant tracking software company, and we only for the last 15 years, or else it will take much too long to give you the, you know, the details of 40 years but really for the last 15 years, I’ve been mostly serving as an industry analyst and advisor, I was an analyst at Bersin and Associates wound up giving the keynote in person in fact, 11 years ago and, and more recently, relatively speaking, I was the HCM Practice Leader at Ventana research for the last four and a half years. So I’m on my own now and because of my age and stage, I’m going to probably not be an employee anywhere else, but I’m having a blast and I’m having a pretty robust year, the relationship I have with Lee 60 Insights is one of those relationships I truly value and it’s you know, just having a good time

Brent Skinner 04:12
tastic and we value the relationship with you as well and and I’m just struck by you know, all the different perspectives that you’re able to bring to your to your, your view on HR technology, the HCM industry and all of that and I think it’s incredibly useful and important and important. So you bring a really unique voice getting to the topic that we’re that we’re talking about today and and forgive me if I steal your thunder, I just couldn’t wait to share it. Five opportunities again five opportunities where HR technology can make a difference today and and in the future the coming years. What does somebody want to get to the five of them what But if you were to kind of just kind of soak it all up in sort of a overarching statement, what is? What is what is the some of your thinking here?

Steven Goldberg 05:09
Yeah, thanks. And, um, you know, the first one I’ll mention is not. Yeah, I guess it is one of the five. But more broadly speaking, it’s it’s a thought I’ve had for a long time now. Because it’s, it’s really the byproduct of mashing together the vendor perspective and the customer perspective. And what I’m referring to here is, you know, the vendor perspective is yes, we want to serve our customers, we want to address market needs and opportunities, but we also want to be profitable and to be profitable as a product company, you better be productizing as much as possible, because you can have kind of these one off road products, and it’s just too darn expensive to support the infrastructure around real products. So product is ation is one of the hallmarks that’s a vendor, you know, world. And then when you’re looking at the customer world, it doesn’t fit neatly into their mindset, yes, they understand that. Certainly, their processes are going to be standardized. But they also most customers think that they’re, you know, they have these nuances and these idiosyncratic requirements and a very standardized product. You know, that’s kind of like, you know, the, the common elements in what most organizations do for recruiting for performance, so learning your payroll, and but you have customers that are saying, Yeah, we do a lot of those standardize things and come in, kind of, you know, comment on requirements, but we also have those that are unique. And that’s, that’s where the gaps usually are, you know, between products as Asian and unique requirements. And so that is an area that I have now started to think about differently. I’m now thinking about it in the context of, can machine learning help? And so that’s one of the things I want to talk to you about today. How do you bridge that gap with machine learning, because that’s machine learning can in theory, bring bring to bear best practices, whether it be specific to that, to that customer, or in general to the industry, this is how those gaps are bridged. So, you know, we need to try to serve both masters serve both agendas, the customer and the vendor. So that’s, that’s one area. And another one that I think about is what I call line manager enablement. It’s a phrase that I started using when I was at PeopleSoft. Why did I focus on it so much? And I’m surprised, even fast forward to today. It’s not even. It’s not getting anything close to the attention. I think it needs. Yes, it’s bandied about not necessarily with those words, but we got to focus on line managers. It’s a very important stakeholder group. Yes. But why is it important? It’s important because the HR department typically only comprises about 1% of the organization, how can you possibly scale and be have a finger on the pulse of the needs interests and goals and potential and issues and challenges of every employee in an organization, every worker when you want this out of the organization, so line managers have to be viewed as a critical way to listen to employees to listen to the needs, interests and goals and balance them with the needs interests and goals of the of the enterprise. So whether it be in the context of change management or a steady state kind of operating environment, line managers need help. And, and that recognition, I think is increasing. is increasing out there. And I think technology providers, you know, product companies are thinking about how can we help line managers allow organizations to be more agile, whether it be again, kind of in a highly fluid situation or a steady state situation. So why managers needing it line by line manager enablement is another one. And yeah, I mean, there’s more but I’ve kind of given you the summary level, but I’ll let you stay

Brent Skinner 09:49
is, you know, now that we’re into it, this this is super interesting, and let’s just keep going. But I have one question here, or an observation But because because mine line manager enablement is super interesting to me, and, and I share your puzzlement over why it hasn’t kind of taken off more. It occurs to me that a lot of eights, HCM technology isn’t necessarily, you know, best left solely in the hands of the HR department, not because the HR department, I mean, the HR department is obviously capable, it’s just that, you know, like you said, they typically are 1% of the organization, maybe even less, it’s around that, right, you just you can’t scale, you know, as much as you want, you can’t scale to really be there, everywhere the employee experience is happening. And that’s that, I guess that’s the other pieces that we’ve had the emergence of the employee experience taking on so much importance in the past couple of years, in the wake of this pandemic, especially, but it was brewing beforehand, right big time. Like that the employee experience is line managers much closer to all the other employees experience than the HR person is. And I, you know, we’ve seen that you mentioned some, you know, technology that might be emerging that could help to empower the line manager? Oh, well, we’ve seen it, you know, and you have to obviously use it. And I think it may come down to analytics. And, and I’ve seen, you know, I have seen products launched in the past year or so where they they kind of combine people data with with operational data, which which isn’t not, which is not not people data. But the point being is that is to deliver very pertinent information to the people closest to that, to that experience.

Steven Goldberg 11:49
Yeah, I, you know, what we’ve heard, you know, new terms use, and really in the last couple of years, and, you know, probably ushered in by the COVID era. Yeah, the word empathy has been used in the past that phrases like listening more to employees have been used in the past. But boy, they really come to the fore. And so, you know, if you really think about it in a real practical way, whether it be through exit interviews, or you know, Glassdoor reviews, or the fact that you are as an organization, not having a lot of success in terms of recruiting the best talent in the industry, it could be all kinds of signs, could be your standard dashboards, could be surveys, could be sentiment analysis that’s picking up on words and themes and anonymized. You know, emails and discussion boards, or whatever it might be. The key is, it’s a two fold, it’s a two fold dynamic, you will have the cues and the signals wherever they’re coming from. And then what do you do about it? And then what do you do about it is what we’re talking about here, the HR department cannot scale to systematically be everywhere, particularly in a global organization at the same time, so the line managers have to be really in the middle of what do we do that? What do we do about the fact that engagement and engagement is going in the wrong way retention is going in the wrong way? That, you know, we introduced a new benefit plan, and now people are leaving in droves. So yeah, I mean, a lot of this, yeah, the, you know, all in circles, the employee experience theme. But I think these are really important. And I think the more product organizations start to think in these terms, I think we’ll all be better served.

Brent Skinner 13:50
Yeah, I have to agree, I have to agree. And, and HR can be, you know, in those types of situations, HR can be, you know, the mentor or the, or the coach, the coach for the line manager with, you know, that expertise and in what you should do next, and these sorts of things helping. Yeah, there’s a lot of fertile ground there. We have three more, three more to get through here, though. So I want to make sure that we keep moving here, because I’m looking forward to the to the, to what they are.

Steven Goldberg 14:22
Sure. Yeah, so this one has a tie in with line managers. And because it will take me too long to get into, you know, to get too granular about my background, because I’ve been doing it so long. But I also had an opportunity to work for Wayne Huizenga, the late Wayne Huizenga, who, in the history of America or the annals of American business, I think he’s the only one that founded three fortune 500, Blockbuster, waste management and automation but he actually acquired over 500 companies, and then the year and a half then I was head of HR in and eight In the HR department, I learned an awful lot. And one of the things I learned is that there was no talent we’re talking about right? The two years right before I joined PeopleSoft. So yes, it’s a long time ago. But I’ve been a student of m&a and people aspects of m&a ever since. And one of the reasons why is because I tried to be an advocate on behalf of customers and buyers, trying to get more technology to help in the realm of, again to people aspects, and mergers and acquisitions. So, you know, you can think of any kind of moment that matters, and, you know, for the enterprise. And so it could be an m&a business integration side of the m&a or it could be a corporate restructuring or going into a new line of business or what have you. But change management is the horizontal that and the common thread that cuts across all of it. And I don’t believe the words change management and, and the words HR technology have too often been found in the same sentence. With the exception of we’ve only gotten new HR technology, or isn’t there some invest in change management, we have to do to try to raise that, you know, elevate our chances of being successful. I’m not talking about that relationship between tech and and change management, I’m talking about actually using tech to help in a change management program or exercise. And so we know that you have big boulders within a change management lifecycle, like at the front end, assessing organizational readiness. And then you have and you have skills and competencies and attitude and all of that. And then you have boulders around communications. And you have guidance that line managers need when invariably their team members come to them and say, I don’t see my role being down important in the new regime, or there’s redundancy, and there’s likely going to be layoffs. And should I be looking, what kind of guidance can you give me, a lot of line managers haven’t been through that and not experienced in that situation. And those are pivotal moments, every one of those interactions, particularly if it’s a key employee, or even an employee that’s well connected, or kind of a brand ambassador. Those are all critical. And yeah, I think HR technology can play a much bigger role relative to that front end of assessing readiness, and also all the way through of assessing risks, retention risks, basic event of engagement, employee engagement, productivity waning, and just the guidance around communications and personalizing those communications. I think it’s it’s fertile ground. And that’s an understanding to be honest.

Brent Skinner 17:57
Yeah, you know, one thing that came to mind with the example you shared of the, you know, the, the the employee seeing their role and thinking, Well, gosh, I might be redundant here, should I, you know, those kinds of tough conversations, and it made me think this is a this is this is parallel, it’s not exactly what would necessarily be used, but I think of, you know, the kind of technologies now that, you know, that facilitate and support continuous performance management, which is I’ve seen called enablement. Instead, these sorts of things where we’re at, maybe you have a pet, so like, a tangible example of, of a technology, a new sort of modern progressive technology for people performance, being used as a or even a Slack or something like that, right, something less, you know, specific with its with its, you know, its its, its application, right, being a way to kind of, you know, provide, provide conduits for those conversations for the conversations to have to happen.

Steven Goldberg 19:10
Totally. And then also notion of kind of codifying best practices. What do you do when these high risk situations, I mean, to me, that’s one of the best times you want to start, you know, having a repository of best practices that you can, that you can access is high risk situations, whether it be your own personal life, or certainly in the life of an organization. And, and again, those major periods of change are high risk. They’re mean, if you just look at the research out there and really the last 30 years of research, most of these moments that matter for the enterprise, either underperform or fail. It’s been as high as 70% have major m&a is underperforming or failing. If you go down to like corporate restructurings, going into a new line of business, it might be more like 30 to 50% underperforming or failing. But boy, like I said, if if that is an even if you have one line manager that has cracked the code and figure it out, here’s what they’re going to say to employees that come to them with very specific questions that they don’t have an answer to. They don’t have an answer to whether or not their job is going to be done. And one of the things that I learned it kind of in real time was, and this was back when, when Simon and Schuster acquired Macmillan Publishing, and I was part of that, I was a consultant to Simon and Schuster to the head of HR Simon and Schuster. And, and basically, what he advised me to do was just let people know the date at which the plan will be communicating, or different milestones of the plan, as opposed to saying we haven’t figured it out yet. And just that little bit of, of transparency and communication goes such a long way in terms of building trust and calming people down or a more kind of highfalutin way to say it is kind of compressing their period of destabilization when people are very distracted.

Brent Skinner 21:23
Yeah, yeah. I like the highfalutin way of putting it. I like that. You know, I know we got two more to get through. But just one one more observation. It’s a super interesting to me. It’s gonna sound like it’s coming out of left field. But over the weekend, I was watching a YouTube video while I was washing dishes on my smartphone perched upon the windowsill in front of me. And it was a it was about Three Mile Island at the the old nuclear plant accidentally back in 79. Went to school in Buffalo. Oh, you did? Oh, wow. Yeah. I’ve driven through there a couple of times. Yeah. So they were talking about how the actual accident after the initial sort of lack of, of, you know, of knowledge of what had happened, they, they actually quickly, relatively quickly figured out that it wasn’t good, but it wasn’t going to be that bad, and that it was all going to be contained. And there’ll be very little, you know, arrays, I won’t go into all the details. But suffice it to say that all of the fear and all of that all that took place or occurred or played out because of the poor communication by the by the spokespeople, and they were in one, it was a very analogous thing to, you know, just saying when the next update will come versus kind of saying, I don’t know, if somebody at one point said I don’t know, and it was regarding how much? Or why should I have to know about that around some sort of radiation, possibly in many, and that that’s when it so you know, whether what’s whether it’s in business or you know, m&a, or, you know, a nuclear power plant accident? If you have there’s some best practices to to, to do here.

Steven Goldberg 23:11
And they’re not rocket science, you know, I mean, who’s not going to shake your hand? affirmatively when you say bye, you know, say that that makes sense. And yet, there’s some of the most kind of basic, common sense ways of dealing with challenging situations evade us, us as organizations. And, and maybe this you know, there’s little talk we’re doing today, we’ll help a couple of them out there. I don’t have a timer. Your laughter This is the first one I’m doing with you. Do you want me to move on?

Brent Skinner 23:45
Let’s keep going. We have we have? We have more time? Yeah, yeah, I want to get through all five. Yeah.

Steven Goldberg 23:52
Sure. I’ve lost count of how many we’ve done.

Brent Skinner 23:55
There was a third one,

Steven Goldberg 23:57
I think, what’s that?

Brent Skinner 23:58
That was a third one,

Steven Goldberg 23:59
I think. Okay, good. Don’t ask me to recap the three. So let’s see. The fourth one, I would say is the P where P for planning. So, you know, of course, there’s different pillars that relate to that. Pete where and you know, it could be workforce planning. It could be strategic workforce planning, where there’s more kind of cross domain linkages, cross functional linkages, linking, HR planning, with business planning, that’s when you get into the realm of strategic workforce planning. But also compensation planning. So one of the things I had to do, which was really I have to say where the action was in HR in investment banks, was I managed the bonus process and when you manage the bonus process for investment banks, and I wasn’t the head of comp, I was the head of HR systems but but believe me, and the The, the investments in HR systems was almost entirely justified in those organizations by getting through the bonus process unscathed. You know, so I learned a lot. I mean, I went through this at four different investment banks. And, you know, and one of the things that I learned was, you know, commercial off the shelf HR systems really went out to John to do some of the things we had to do. And even if you fast forward to today, I would say you have to look there out there, but you have to look for some of the capabilities of the dowel to articulate one is, you know, the ability to with some nimbleness, and that’s a word, be able to define pools pools that you’re going to place employees into, then allocate a percentage of the pool to them, it might be a salary increase pool might be a variable comp, pool, equity pool, bonus pool, and those pools are more, a bit more complicated then senior executives, mid level executives, professionals and non exempt, it’s more complicated than that, because you have to account for employees that you want to invest in. So it’s going to be high potentials, that’s going to be employees that have the types of skills that are the future of the company, and so forth. So a lot of thought has to go into creating the polls, figuring out how much you’re going to allocate in the aggregate to those schools, particularly when in an environment like financial services, perhaps 20% of the total spend is already guaranteed much of much of it to executives. And, you know, or people that have targets and they’re not going to make their targets. So there’s a lot of because you’re allocate, you’re taking from Peter to pay Paul, or Mary to pay Sue. So you know, so that, so you have that aspect, that front end of compensation planning, you have some of those nuances around strategic workforce planning, you have it and last one I mentioned is, you know, succession planning, why is it that it’s hard to find, even in one of the major HR tech providers, give me a capabilities right out of the box that allows you to combine recruiting elements of recruiting with succession planning, specifically, you know, you have a successor of successive candidates from inside? Well, how about we have, you know, we interviewed a couple of senior level candidates, you know, potential candidates for the CFO CTO role, that are not ready to make a move. Now, we don’t have anybody ready to make to be promoted now to that seat level inside. But we got to keep that candidate long, we got to do candidate relationship management, and combine the view of external candidates with the view of internals. So bottom line is a ton, in my opinion, a ton of opportunity, in planning and all the end all the pillars that that planning breaks out into talking about opportunity for HR tech.

Brent Skinner 28:14
Yeah, you know, I, I’m with you on that the planning aspect and having that that sophistication of, of capability and the areas that you that you kind of highlighted there. One thing that comes to mind, with you mentioned pools, you know, whether they’d be you know, variable comp pools and salary pools and whatever, right, but also the organization understanding, you know, who inside their internal workforce that says, redundancy, excuse me, they’re in their workforce on their team already, right? Who has the skills that they’re going to need and that the organization will need in the near and maybe midterm future, right. And you see a lot of these self what i All roads lead back to AI as a word a term I like to say sometimes these days, but you see some of these self evolving AI fueled skills ontologies and, and to me this, this is this is really painted for a lot of organizations that are going to be able to do a lot of the stuff that you just described, which is so important.

Steven Goldberg 29:21
Yeah, totally agree. ontologies Yeah, I’m big on those adjacencies and skills equivalencies? Yeah, reminds me and one other thing, you know, in this in this period of a lot of change, I call it Max fluidity. Was there something called Max Headroom, somebody?

Brent Skinner 29:40
Remember Max Headroom? Yeah. Anyway,

Steven Goldberg 29:43
I don’t know why I remember that. But Max limited, a yacht and and the period. It’s also a period of a lot, you know, a lot more uncertainty. In so many ways, you know that who’s coming to work the next day, or who’s gonna decide to go and be their own boss and architect their lives? So what does that mean? I mean, what so we have to within that sort of unpredictable, highly fluid operating environment, things like business plans change, business priorities change, the quarter was, you know, we blew it out, or we didn’t do as well. And then what there’s a cascading set of effects, certain skills become more important, certain skills become less important. That impacts who, who and how we’re going to recruit, when we get the people that have that skill that all of a sudden became more important. This all really relates to planning, maybe I’m overdoing it in terms of connecting planning with all of this, but I think it’s just not linear. And it’s not overly concrete. And it’s not a well defined process. And maybe that ties back to the very first one, we talked about non standard processes.

Brent Skinner 30:50
Yeah. Oh, no, that’s that’s a great insight. I think you’re absolutely correct. Yeah. And we could talk about this a lot. I’m looking at the time. And we have one more to get through. And I want to make sure we get to it.

Steven Goldberg 31:04
Yeah, thanks. So appreciate that. I’m one of the frameworks you mentioned one of my hats that where you’re going as an independent, that’s in theory, trying to scale back a little bit. One of the hats I wear is an analyst and I got kind of got this from really having the good fortune of being able to work with Josh Burson and some other great analysts, 1011 years ago in person and Associates, you know, one of the things I learned from Josh’s frameworks, the magic awareness frameworks, because you know, you’re introducing new concepts, it’s really good. The frameworks are, you know, are the best way to get people to relate to these concepts that maybe they haven’t been introduced to. And so one of the frameworks that I’ve created in recent years was the AI and HCM framework, and it has five kind of categories of use cases. Now I’m going to get to one that I think is a golden opportunity. That’s not getting as much investment as as maybe it should. But my five categories of use cases for AI in HCM are the three P’s mind, kind of obsessed with the people that are paying, I guess, lately, but so the three P’s are personalized, predictive prescribed, personalization may relate to learning and relate to how you’re dealing with candidates, even rewards, you know, prescribe what’s what should we do, given these different options predict retention rates, engagement is going to go down. And then the next two are, understand, understand why productivity is going down, understand why people aren’t accepting job offers anymore. And then the last one is the one I want to highlight. And it’s curate, curate, I put it in the context of any resources that will help me be more productive in my job. So obviously, that can be kind of learning content, that’s ideally kind of served up to me in a personalized way, the medium that I want to use the pace of learning, etc. But But how about mentors and coaches and resources that, you know, courses I could take outside the organization? I think that there’s a new jackets, and it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of algorithms that are needed for this. It’s just a matter of what are the needs? What’s the ass? And and have the technology kind of go out and scour internally and externally? What are the best resources, whether they have people resources, content resources, or what have you? What do you think about?

Brent Skinner 33:39
I think that’s a good one. And you know, what I like? Particularly what’s particularly interesting is I think you’re right. We don’t need necessarily need very sophisticated algorithms for this necessarily. Yeah. And that’s so what’s, what’s stopping us? I use the royal the royal us. Yeah, patients.

Steven Goldberg 34:00
I don’t know. There’s a lot of priorities. And there’s been a lot of applications of technology in the HCM HR range XM world, already. And it’s it’s one of these things where it’s almost circular, you roll out solutions to problems, which are never perfect in any aspect of life, as we know, but in the world of HR tech, you know, 2030 years, you’re wheeling out solutions. And as organizations and customer and users are using them, they find the gaps, they find more ways that they can apply if only there were these new features and functionalities. And so that’s kind of the footprint, dad’s good and bad. We’re covering more ground with HR technology, but the more ground was covered, it’s giving people ideas and the ideas they’re getting. And going back and lobbying vendors with were late to the existing applications and extending them expanding them and filling in gaps. It doesn’t necessarily lead to the new frontiers that we’re talking about. Because the context isn’t necessarily there, and there’s enough to concentrate on with what’s already there. Does that make sense?

Brent Skinner 35:22
Yeah, maybe that makes a lot of sense is there’s, there’s there’s not enough, you know, you know, mindspace for them to even for them to fathom it necessarily, you know, pointed out to them, and they may indeed, think, Oh, right. Yeah, we should be thinking about that. Maybe we’ll move the needle a little bit for a few people with this podcast in that regard as well.

Steven Goldberg 35:45
That’d be great. Yeah, I hope we terrified I lost track but I always enjoyed speaking with you brands whether it’s a recorded for for eternity or not.

Brent Skinner 35:56
This is well this one is recorded for eternity. And this was a fantastic podcast. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and and it was five I kept track it. I don’t know how I did, but somehow I did. And it was it was five and so much, so much information so useful to our viewers. I’m really looking forward to to making this one live, which will be soon and and thanks so much for joining us,

Steven Goldberg 36:23
Steve. Thanks for having me. Take care, everybody. Thanks for listening, take care and absolutely take care.

Brent Skinner 36:27
Bye bye

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